Rededication service for Serjeant John Harold Bott DCM of 11th Battalion The Royal Fusiliers

[LDT006]

A publication on a Flemish news website with photo's and small movie.
They have English language option but it's not there (yet?).

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2024/03/20/ieper-onbekende-soldaat-krijgt-naam-op-grafsteen/

 

[Simon Birch]

Thanks Luc.

Simon

[Ancre1917]

Hello Luc

Was Sgt. Bott’s grave identified by you Luc? I’m interested because he came from where I live and he should be  listed on our local war memorial. Were any of his descendants or other relatives traced? If you have anything else on him, could you pm the details please?  

It’s just over a year since you helped me with the identification of Lt HR Smith’s grave in Écoust and his brother Ralph’s likely resting place. Both were North Staffordshire regiment officers although they lived in Putney. 
Richard

[Cheshire22]

13 hours ago, Ancre1917 said:

Hello Luc

Was Sgt. Bott’s grave identified by you Luc? I’m interested because he came from where I live and he should be  listed on our local war memorial. Were any of his descendants or other relatives traced? If you have anything else on him, could you pm the details please?  

It’s just over a year since you helped me with the identification of Lt HR Smith’s grave in Écoust and his brother Ralph’s likely resting place. Both were North Staffordshire regiment officers although they lived in Putney. 
Richard

Richard, 

the grave was discovered by a chap called Vern Littley (I hope that is the correct spelling of his surname). 
there is a podcast on this, Discovering the Forgetton on the Tales from the Battlefields in January, this year.

Jamie 

[Ancre1917]

Thanks Jamie. I’ll look that out

Richard

[Ancre1917]

I’ve just listened to the podcast, Jamie. Vern mentioned a brother who also died in the Great War, Pte HE Bott North Staffordshire Regiment. I’m thinking he must have been wounded around 21 March 1918, when the Germans overran Bullecourt and Écoust St Mein, dying on 2 April and being buried by a German sanitation company. 
 

Here’s the link to his ICRC entry giving the details. 
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/04/01/C_G1_E_04_01_0146/C_G1_E_04_01_0146_0099.JPG/4

I don’t have any German  so can’t translate what is recorded. If anyone can help, that would be great. Thanks 
 

Richard

 

 

[LDT006]

It says something like this:

"Found dead on the battlefield at ??? railwaystation Ecoust St. Mein ??? railwaytracks, buried grave 4  on 2.4.18".

It doesn't state wich cemetery but the text is the same for others on the same page, so it might be possible to find the cemetery if one of these has been identified.
I don't have much time right now but will try to look into it.

Looks very similar to your case of Lt HR Smith’s grave in Écoust.

Luc.

Edited 25 March by LDT006

[Ancre1917]

Thanks Luc.  Pte. HE Bott has a known grave in HAC cemetery in Écoust St Mein.  There might be others on these lists who are currently just “known unto God”, which would be just the same situation as Lt  Smith 

 

I don’t think I ever really thanked you for all your help with his case.  I have to say finding him was one of the most meaningful of my life experiences  

Richard

 

[LDT006]

A quick check:

Bannister JW (just below Bott) has no known grave but was buried in the same "mass" grave no 4:
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/739741/john-william-bannister/
ICRC: https://media.grandeguerre.icrc.org/full-resolution/C/G1/E/15/01/C_G1_E_15_01_0004/C_G1_E_15_01_0004_2517_0.JPG

Jarvis A. has the same description.

Are these the others who were found with Bott?

[Ancre1917]

Four unknowns at the same map reference as Bott, so it looks like it. There doesn’t seem to have been any distinctive evidence on the bodies to distinguish one from another though. Worth a look I think. 
Richard

[LDT006]

A "Buried near this spot" could be possible with hard evidence. First thing to do is check the entire ICRC list for that description and also go through the CWGC burial return lists to verify that there are only 4.

Couldn't find a Lieutenant "Jarvis A" yesterday, a quick check today shows that it must be SECOND LIEUTENANT JOHN JARVIS, North Staffordshire Regiment 5th Bn.  21 March 1918.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1574315/john-jarvis/

Luc.

[Ancre1917]

I agree, Luc, that there is one man who might be worth a look. As you say, on the ICRC he’s listed as a lieutenant A Jarvis North Staffordshire Regiment. CWGC have a 2nd Lt J Jarvis on the Arras memorial to the missing. If we can access the other concentration reports for HAC cemetery Écoust, we might find some information on a North Staffordshire officer buried as an unknown. Do you have access to the burial returns for HAC cemetery Écoust ?  I wonder if the late Richard Laughton put them together. At one time I had a list of all his cemetery files, but I can’t find it now. Any ideas?

Richard

[LDT006]

Files from Richard are here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/e6csl7gfp5jf8/1._New_Zipped_Files_-_Faster!

 

[Ancre1917]

Thanks Luc. Just done a quick check but can’t find HAC cemetery Écoust. There must be a way of accessing the concentration reports myself. Do you have any advice?  When I did the research on Lt Smith all those years ago, Richard Laughton kindly did this for me. 
Richard

[LDT006]

I have the concentration reports for HAC British Cemetery. There are 4 others in the same grave as Pt. Bott, see page below.
But the preceding page has 4 unknown privates without a map reference, I can't decypher the note in the cross column: "Buried or Burial .....? no's:"
Idea's?

[Ancre1917]

It’s certainly “burial”.   And “nos”. You might think the missing word is Plots or Holes but the penultimate letter looks like an “i”. Perhaps a GWF member can help. However, without the map reference, there’s no proof they were in the same grave as Bott. I take it there’s no evidence of an unknown officer. 
Thanks for putting this up, Luc. 
 

Richard

[Cheshire22]

Burial holes / Burial folios 

[Ancre1917]

Folios is a good bet, Jamie, and makes sense. I don’t think you’d talk about a grave as a hole. It also has an “i”

Richard

[Ancre1917]

I’m still no nearer to having a full translation of Pte Bott’s ICRC record. As far as I can work out from what Luc says above, his body was found on the battlefield and he was buried on 2 April 1918 in Grave 4 by the German sanitation company. His CWGC record shows the date of death as 2 April, however.

This seems to be a mistake. Am I right in this conclusion, and would the CWGC be bothered to change his date of death to “on or around” this date? He was probably killed or mortally wounded on 21 March when his battalion was overrun in the first day of Operation Michael. I suppose the records ought to be as accurate as possible. 
Richard

[LDT006]

Did you check the war diaries for Bott? When were they at that location?
It's possible that CWGC only had the ICRC report for Bott and used that date.

The date of death for Bannister and 2nd Lt. Jarvis seems correct: 21 March

Are there more soldiers mentioned on the ICRC documents with the same description?

Sorry but I don't have much time right now, maybe next week.

Luc.

[Ancre1917]

I’ve got the war diaries for the two battalions here so can check tomorrow. The 5 battalion was defending Bullecourt on 21 March when it was overrun. The 2/6 was at Écoust St Mein then.  It’s not clear which battalion he was in. CWGC says on his record that he was in 2/5; the concentration report says 6. Lt Jarvis was a 5 officer Kia during the pre attack bombardment. As Bott and Jarvis were put in the same grave (4), I would say he was in 5 battalion. 
 

The three men referred to on this page went in to Grave 4. The others on the page go into a number of other graves including 3, 6 and 8. 

Richard

[Matlock1418]

On 25/03/2024 at 11:58, Ancre1917 said:

Pte HE Bott North Staffordshire Regiment. I’m thinking he must have been wounded around 21 March 1918, when the Germans overran Bullecourt and Écoust St Mein, dying on 2 April and being buried by a German sanitation company. 

Pte. Herbert Ernest BOTT, 242571, North Staffordshire Regt

Pension records at WFA/Fold3 have this PIC

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

Missing 21.3.18, Death officially accepted 

[My reading is that MoP would have likely taken this date however Separation Allowance would have continued until 17.11.18 immediately prior to start of pension award on 18.11.18 so in that sense his date of death was all rather academic for his widow by then]

Doesn't help definitively clarify his death date and certainly not explain the current CWGC date of death 2 April 1918 https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/303682/h-e-bott

M

[Matlock1418]

On 25/03/2024 at 11:58, Ancre1917 said:

Pte HE Bott North Staffordshire Regiment. I’m thinking he must have been wounded around 21 March 1918, when the Germans overran Bullecourt and Écoust St Mein, dying on 2 April and being buried by a German sanitation company. 
 

Here’s the link to his ICRC entry giving the details. 
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/04/01/C_G1_E_04_01_0146/C_G1_E_04_01_0146_0099.JPG/4

I don’t have any German  so can’t translate what is recorded. If anyone can help, that would be great. Thanks

Perhaps @AOK4 and/or @charlie2 can please help

M

[charlie2]

15 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Perhaps @AOK4 and/or @charlie2 can please help

M

He was found dead on the battlefield on the tracks of the disused French Railway Station at Ecoust St. Mein. Buried in grave 4 on 02.04.1918. His ID disk was forwarded from the Finance Office of a Sanitätskompagnie ≈ roughly a Field Ambulance. 12.05.1918.

Charlie

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, charlie2 said:

He was found dead on the battlefield on the tracks of the disused French Railway Station at Ecoust St. Mein. Buried in grave 4 on 02.04.1918. His ID disk was forwarded from the Finance Office of a Sanitätskompagnie ≈ roughly a Field Ambulance. 12.05.1918.

Thank you.

That makes me think he died before 02.04.18

M