Pte Thomas Alexander Ring 22313 Norfolk Regiment

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

44 minutes ago, AMR048 said:

what does the 24 IBD stand for? 

24th Infantry Base Depot, Etaples

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/other-aspects-of-order-of-battle/infantry-base-depots-in-france-1914-1918/

44 minutes ago, AMR048 said:

And if he left May 1916 to join the 9th battalion he must've joined the entrenching battalion in England before moving to france?

Yes, the dates do seem a little out of sequence. Not sure what that signifies.
The entry dated 24/3/1916 is :

[Received From]              [Transfer/promotion/ incident etc]          [Date]
24 IBD                           Joined No.3 Entrenching Battalion            24/3/16

I'm pretty certain it says IBD.
I attach the images of the pages from his history so that others may view and give an opinion.
Images courtesy Ancestry.co.uk
 

(Hidden on one of the other pages is yet another service number - 936 East Surrey Regt. Discharged 1905 on completion of his contracted time.)

 

[kenf48]

See LLT Entrenching Battalions

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/other-aspects-of-order-of-battle/entrenching-battalions/
 

This soldier was posted to the 9th Battalion in the U.K. and embarked for France on the 7th March 1916 and in all probability arrived at Etaples on the 9th. On the 24th March he was posted from the IBD to No 3 Entrenching Battalion (in all probability with others from his draft).This was reported on the 28th March..  On the 11th May 1916 he joined his Battalion in the field. The war diary does not show reinforcement drafts in this period.

As for service in Palestine his regiment was in 163 Brigade 54th (East Anglian) Division 

see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/54th-east-anglian-division/

The OH for the campaign during this period is online and gives an outline of the actions in the immediate absence of the war diaries.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.211976/mode/1up

 

[PRC]

3 hours ago, AMR048 said:

What actions were the 1/4th in during that time period in Palastine? (31st May 1917 - May 1918). I'm struggling to find a war diary for this battalion at that time.

The two Territorial Force Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment out in Palestine, the 1/4th and the 1/5th had practically ceased to exist as a result of the 2nd Battle of Gaza in April 1917, with many of the bodies lying unrecovered in no-mans land between the two forces. The two Battalions were rebuilt with draft from the UK, amongst which were a significant number of recovered wounded from the Battles of the Somme.

The disasterous outcome of 2nd Gaza, saw a dramatic overhaul of the command structure, with a new Theatre Commander, General Allenby. He oversaw a build up that would lead to the successful outcome of the 3rd Battle of Gaza in November 1917, and then the pursuit of the Turkish forces to Jerusalem and beyond. The Turkish rearguard would turn and fight from time to time, and proved more than capable of inflicting a bloody nose, with outposts over-run or pushed back to keep the allies at a distance. Many of these blocking attacks were at the company level and so incidents such as the operations at Berukin (9-10 April 1918) were more like the highpoints of such incidents. The summer heat then interrupted major operations, and by the time they resumed Thomas Ring was back in the UK.

For the briefest of introduction on what the two Battalions, both in the 54th (East Anglian) Division, were up to see our parent site, the Long, Long Trail. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/54th-east-anglian-division/

And for a slightly fuller introduction to the battles \ actions \ fighting the 1/4th Battalion were involved in the relevant Wikipedia acticles are a good place to start.

3rd Gaza - 1st and 2nd November 1917. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Gaza

Battle of Jaffa - 20th and 21st December 1917. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jaffa_(1917)

Actions at Berukin- 9th and 10th April 1918 gets a brief mention as part of the prelude to the 2nd Battle of the Jordan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_the_Jordan#Prelude

Although the Norfolks are not mentioned, interesting thread here with links to photographs of the area.

Some details on minor actions in November 1917 here

And here

The 1/4th War Diary for Gallipoli is available on Ancestry, and there is a manuscript copy of the months from August 1918 that has been made available by the Regimental Museum via the Ogilby Trust - unfortunately neither being of much help for the period you are interested in. There may be more available via that route but I don't find it easy to construct queries that produce reasonal quantities of matches. 4th Battalion War Diary gives 4, 926 matches, most of which are other Battalions War Diaries and individuals personal diaries. But "4th Battalion War Diary" gives one match - a Christmas Card from the 8th Battalion! https://www.theogilbymuster.com/search/results#/?query=*&page=1&type=flex&sort=Relevance&filterBy=Regimental_Collection,"Royal Norfolk Regiment Museum"&spellCheck=true

The Regimental History can also be seen online here https://archive.org/details/norfolkregimentvol2/page/n9/mode/2up

The rebuilding after 2nd Gaza starts on page 148.

Hope that helps,
Peter

[Pat Atkins]

On an incidental, and relatively trivial, level - the service records Dai posted contain the information that Thomas Ring had pre-War militia service with the East Surreys, the service number 936:

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Does it say 'Completed Militia Service'?

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Does it say 'Completed Militia Service'?

I also read it as that.

M

[PRC]

Militia records look to be under William Thomas Ring - there is a surviving Militia Service record for 936 4th Battalion East Surrey Regiment. Records available on FindMyPast and Genes Reunited.

Attesting on the 27th May 1899 for six years in the Militia and living at 30 Everett Street, Nine Elms Lane, Battersea.
Ages 18 years and 1 month, he was recorded then as 5 feet six inches tall, weighed 123 lbs, had grey eyes and light brown hair. He has something, ("T.I.") on his left forearm and a scar on the back of his head - does that tally with Thomas as described in the Great War era records?

Only three surviving pages and none containing next of kin details.

He was embodied with the 4th Battalion for two periods of the Boer War, serving in the UK and South Africa - the latter in 1902.
He became time expired on the 26th May 1905.

Sample signature on the attestation to use for comparisons if others can be found such as the census declarations as well as in his Great War records.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited

Cheers,
Peter

[AMR048]

On 20/03/2024 at 13:32, PRC said:

Militia records look to be under William Thomas Ring - there is a surviving Militia Service record for 936 4th Battalion East Surrey Regiment. Records available on FindMyPast and Genes Reunited.

Attesting on the 27th May 1899 for six years in the Militia and living at 30 Everett Street, Nine Elms Lane, Battersea.
Ages 18 years and 1 month, he was recorded then as 5 feet six inches tall, weighed 123 lbs, had grey eyes and light brown hair. He has something, ("T.I.") on his left forearm and a scar on the back of his head - does that tally with Thomas as described in the Great War era records?

Only three surviving pages and none containing next of kin details.

He was embodied with the 4th Battalion for two periods of the Boer War, serving in the UK and South Africa - the latter in 1902.
He became time expired on the 26th May 1905.

Sample signature on the attestation to use for comparisons if others can be found such as the census declarations as well as in his Great War records.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited

Cheers,
Peter

This could be him he might've switched his first and middle names round. His full name being Thomas Alexander William Ring born - 27th April 1878 which wouldv'e made him 18 years and 1 month old. Which matches this record.

[AMR048]

Would there be a way of finding out any medals he was issued for service in the boer war? And how would I find it?

[PRC]

21 minutes ago, AMR048 said:

Would there be a way of finding out any medals he was issued for service in the boer war? And how would I find it?

For those who served in South Africa during the conflict there were just the two service medals - although following the practice they came with clasps recogning involvement in specific battles and campaigns. The most common is the Queens South Africa Medal, (QSAM), which in theory could come with up to 26 clasps! The second was the Kings South Africa Medal , (KSAM), which had a maximum of two clasps. Because of the award criteria the KSAM couldn't be awarded to someone who hadn't received the QSAM - even though like Thomas all his service in South Africa came after the Queen was dead.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen's_South_Africa_Medal and  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King's_South_Africa_Medal

His medal awards are shown on page 3 of his militia records. It's not initially clear which service medal he got, but bearing in mind a KSAM couldn't be awarded by itself it is almost certainly the QSAM. Of the two clasps he was entitled to, 'Cape Colony' went with the QSAM, while 'South Africa 1902' normally went with the KSAM. But reading the Wikipedia articles the clasp "South Africa 1902" could be worn with the QSAM if there was no entitlement to the KSAM.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited. The dates shown will  be likely to include travel time.

Not sure what you mean by "find them".

If you mean confirmation that they were issued then my understanding is that the regimental medal rolls are on the National Archive website, although I've not had cause to look myself.

If you mean physically find them then much the same options as any missing military medals. The British Medal Forum has a section for relatives looking to be re-united with family medals. Setting up a standing search on e-bay \ gumtree etc so you get notification if they are advertised there. Checking with extended family. Investigating whether as a subscriber you can add notes to his Militia record on FindMyPast - Ancestry has this facility so, for WW1 medals, notes can be added against Medal Index cards & Medal Rolls, however always best to give contact details via the site rather than giving e-mail \ phone numbers as those can be harvested by spammers. Then there are forums like the Anglo-Boer War Forum. https://www.angloboerwar.com/

And of course by raising this thread which has been picked up by Google and the like you've already advertised to the world your interest

Cheers,
Peter