Pte Thomas Alexander Ring 22313 Norfolk Regiment

[AMR048]

Hi, i'm trying to find out more information in regards to where my great grandfathers battalion served during WW1 and where he might have served?

 

Pte Thomas Alexander Ring

Born: 27th April 1878 

Service Number: 22373

Enlisted: 4/11/1915

Served in: 3rd Battalion Norfolk Regiment 

 

I also know he was wounded on the 17th October 1916 and spent time in hospital but im unsure what this was for.

 

Thanks in advance

[Matlock1418]

MIC shows he also served as 689243, Labour Corps

M

Edit: Unspecified disability claim pension index card as 689243 shows he was discharged from the Labour Corps [seemingly likely to Army Z Reserve] 19.3.19

Edited 19 March by Matlock1418
edit

[AMR048]

thats interesting, i'm guessing he was transfered to the labour corps after the war ended?

 

[Matlock1418]

13 minutes ago, AMR048 said:

i'm guessing he was transfered to the labour corps after the war ended?

689243, Labour Corps, was issued approx. September to December 1918 [see Starling & Lee's "No Labour, No Battle"- a history of the Labour Corps] - Likely because his medical category had become downgraded

Our resident Norfolk Regt expert @PRC may well be able to help you with the Norfolk Regt - I'm definitely suspecting he served beyond 3NR [since 3NR were a Training/Home Service-only Bn] - worth looking to see what the Medal Roll might have to say on this subject.

M

Edit: once you have his Norfolk Regt O/S service then you may be able to seek out the relevant battalion's(s') War Diary(ies)

Edited 19 March by Matlock1418
edit

[AMR048]

ok thats great to know, thank you for taking the time to respond. I've been told he was awarded a medal(s) but im unsure what they were. 

I saw a casualty form active service a while ago which had a medal stamp on it. This form is where I found out that he had been wounded.

The form also stated that he embarked on 7/3/16 does this mean embarked to go overseas or does this mean something else?

I look forward to hopefully hearing more from @PRC  

Edited 19 March by AMR048

[Matlock1418]

6 minutes ago, AMR048 said:

I saw a casualty form active service a while ago which had a medal stamp on it. This form is where i found out that he had been wounded.

The form also stated that he embarked on 7/3/16 does this mean embarked to go overseas or does this mean something else?

Embarked to go O/S.

As after 31 Dec 1915 and had been in a theatre of war he was awarded a 'Pair' / 'Mutt & Jeff' = A British War Medal and a Victory Medal

M

Edited 19 March by Matlock1418
add

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

10 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

looking to see what the Medal Roll might have to say on this subject.

Nothing other than Labour Corps (who issued the medals), and Norfolk Regiment. No battalion listed for Norf. R. and no company for Lab. Corps.

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

17 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

looking to see what the Medal Roll might have to say on this subject.

Nothing other than Labour Corps (who issued the medals), and Norfolk Regiment. No battalion listed for Norf. R. and no company for Lab. Corps.

Doh, silly me   - the Labour Corps was 'notorious' for not listing sub-unit details.

It does sound as if there might be other records to check for Bn. details.

M

Edited 19 March by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Unspecified disability claim pension index card as 689243 shows he was discharged from the Labour Corps [seemingly likely to Army Z Reserve] 19.3.19

Image thanks to WFA/Fold3

All soldiers had the opportunity to make a disability claim on discharge/transfer to Z Reserve [claim typically made on an Army Form Z.22] - there had to be an on-going disability at the time of claim [a previous event during service was not enough on its own for an award] - the two matters, disability claim and ZR, were not mutually-exclusive

An interesting card in that it seems to show the loss/non-eligibility of a child in 1919 [the OP may better know the situation]

How have I come to that conclusion? .... Under the 1918 Royal Warrant applicable at the time:

The rate for a 20% disabled pension Class V soldier / Pte - single man or a married man with 3 children as follows: 5/6 + 1/4 + 1/0 + 0/10 pw = 8/8 pw from 20.3.19 to 6.7.19

Whereas

the rate for a 20% disabled pension Class V soldier / Pte - single man or a married man with 2 children as follows: 5/6 + 1/4 + 1/0 pw = 7/10 pw from 7.7.19 to 23.9.19

The children's elements were the 20% proportioned rates of the respective 100% rates for child 1, child 2 and child 3 allowances [child(ren) normally only awarded up to age 16]

Nothing payable for a wife under that RW [That didn't come until the 1919 RW]

For info/clarification: 

• Z/Lab.44656 is the initial Chelsea Hospital pension claim reference and not another Regimental/Corps Number
• Later MoP claim/award refrence 11/M/141264 and not another Regimental/Corps Number
• S.F.O. 89826 is a MoP pension admin reference [typically an identity certificate reference to allow for the collection of pension from a Post Office] and not another Regimental/Corps Number [even though Fold3 initially transcribed 89826 as such - I guess it might also be showing on Ancestry too]

M

Edited 19 March by Matlock1418
add/tweak

[AMR048]

Just now, Matlock1418 said:

he children's elements were the 20% proportioned rates of the respective 100% rates for child 1, child 2 and child 3

Maybe the partial disabiltie came from the wound he suffered in October 1916.

i'm not sure about a loss of a child I know my great grandfathers first wife passed away on the 31st October 1918 and he remarried on 28th May 1919.

He did have 5 children born before 1914 to his first wife and 1 born in 1920 to his second marriage.

[PRC]

Just checking - do you mean 22313 Thomas Alexander William Ring who has surviving service records, according to FindMyPast, and Pension Records according to Ancestry. familysearch says they are from the unburnt WO364 series so seems pension records is more likely - (don't subscribe so can't check them out).

I have 22373 down as Albert Scott - but mistakes can happen

These were a unique service number so no multiple instances of the same number distinguished by prefixes.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 19 March by PRC
Typo

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, AMR048 said:

He did have 5 children born before 1914 to his first wife

If you can check their birth dates / reaching 16 / any death then you may perhaps get a solution as to what went on in 1919

M

[Matlock1418]

14 minutes ago, PRC said:

Just checking - do you mean 22313 Thomas Alexander William Ring who has surviving service records, according to FindMyPast, and Pension Records according to Ancestry. familysearch says they are from the unburnt WO364 series so seems pension records is more likely

PIC as 22313

MIC as 22313

M

Edited 19 March by Matlock1418

[AMR048]

44 minutes ago, PRC said:

Just checking - do you mean 22313 Thomas Alexander William Ring who has surviving service records, according to FindMyPast, and Pension Records according to Ancestry. familysearch says they are from the unburnt WO364 series so seems pension records is more likely - (don't subscribe so can't check them out).

I have 22373 down as Albert Scott - but mistakes can happen

These were a unique service number so no multiple instances of the same number distinguished by prefixes.

Cheers,
Peter

yes it must be 22313 the 1/7 was hard to read and i thought it was a 7. But yes it is Thomas Alexander William Ring.

Edited 19 March by AMR048

[PRC]

Looks like a third service number on the PIC - 89826.

If it's a Norfolk service number then probably post-war.

But Labour Corps 89826 was either a Herbert T. Hawkins, ex Northamptonshire Regiment or an Alfred Whitburn, ex Northamptonshire Regiment according to the MiC's - suspect one of those is an error.

As for the Labour Corps numbers known for Thomas Ring, not many of the nearby service numbers have MiC's, let alone service \ pension records.
689235 Frank George Diaper has a Silver War Badge record card that shows he only enlisted on the 22nd June 1918, so Thomas must have transferred to the Labour Corps after that. Frank has Pension records on Ancestry.
589248 Charles William Chalet has surviving service records on FindMyPast and Ancestry.

2 hours ago, AMR048 said:

yes it must be 22313 the 1/7 was hard to read and i thought it was a 7. But yes it is Thomas William Ring.

No worries - see you have posted while I was typing. Do you have access to his service\pension record via Ancestry \ FindMyPast?
Going from nearby services numbers he was one of a group of Derby Scheme men, married and approximately of the same age, who signed up under the scheme in November 1915.https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

They were mobilised in late spring 1916 and for the few I've looked at would go on mainly to provide drafts to the 1st, 7th, 8th and 9th Battalions.

Hopefully the service\pension record will make it clearer which.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 19 March by PRC
Misleading information

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Yes.

His service record is here:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/971206:1114?tid=&pid=&queryId=145f653f-de6a-41d3-b3d8-dffcf82dfa05&_phsrc=bDw1894&_phstart=successSource

Edited 19 March by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Matlock1418]

56 minutes ago, PRC said:

Looks like a third service number on the PIC - 89826.

If it's a Norfolk service number then probably post-war.

But Labour Corps 89826 was either a Herbert T. Hawkins, ex Northamptonshire Regiment or an Alfred Whitburn, ex Northamptonshire Regiment according to the MiC's - suspect one of those is an error.

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

S.F.O. 89826 is a MoP pension admin reference [typically an identity certificate reference to allow for the collection of pension from a Post Office] and not another Regimental/Corps Number [even though Fold3 initially transcribed 89826 as such - I guess it might also be showing on Ancestry too]

Peter, See my note above relating to the PIC ... 89826 is a transcription error by Fold3/Ancestry

M

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Here's a quick precis:

Attested 4/11/1915
Norf. R. Depot 5/11/1915
3rd Bn. 19/11/1915
9th Bn. 7/3/1916
Depot 22/9/16
3rd Bn. 14/11/1916

GSW Arm 1916
1/4th Bn. 18/5/17 [Embarked Southampton]

Joined 1/4th Bn. 'In the field' 15/6/1917

31/5/17 Disembarked Alexandria, Egypt

20th or 24th/5/18 Embarked Alexandria for 3 weeks UK Leave
4th Res. Bn. 7/8/18
Transferred to Home Service on Compassionate grounds 7/8/18 [elsewhere states 30/7/18].
[Group Trans.??] EC Lab Centre   5/1/19
Despatched to dispersal centre, Crystal Palace 18/2/19

To Class Z     9/3/19

[Later in Records, but chronologically earlier, Norfolk R crossed out and Labour Corps written...}

24 IBD Joined No.3 Entrenching Battalion 24/3/16

"To join Bn."  11/5/16
" To Hospital"  14/7/16
"From Hospital"  16/7/16
"Wounded"  15/9/16
"4 GH, Camiers, GSW: Arm R. To England, Brighton  21/9/16"

Service France 11 months, Palestine 1 year. Wounded Right Shoulder 1918.


 

Edited 19 March by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[PRC]

8 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

See my note above relating to the PIC ... 89826 is a transcription error by Fold3/Ancestry

Apologies M - missed your tweak

Certainly an odd place to put it, although on the relevant three lines of the card only "22313" is in a different colour ink and hand, so probably shoe horned in later.

1 minute ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

9th Bn. 7/3/1916
Depot 22/9/16

"Wounded"  15/9/16
"4 GH, Camiers, GSW: Arm R. To England, Brighton  21/9/16"

The attack on The Quadrilateral. May or may not be friendly fire - all sorts of reasons why a man might receive a GSW in the arm.

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/9th-norfolks-disaster-at-the-quadrilateral-15-september-1916/

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

26 minutes ago, PRC said:

missed your tweak

No worries - That's the problem with tweaks!

M

[AMR048]

3 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Here's a quick precis:

Attested 4/11/1915
Norf. R. Depot 5/11/1915
3rd Bn. 19/11/1915
9th Bn. 7/3/1916
Depot 22/9/16
3rd Bn. 14/11/1916

GSW Arm 1916
1/4th Bn. 18/5/17 [Embarked Southampton]

Joined 1/4th Bn. 'In the field' 15/6/1917

31/5/17 Disembarked Alexandria, Egypt

20th or 24th/5/18 Embarked Alexandria for 3 weeks UK Leave
4th Res. Bn. 7/8/18
Transferred to Home Service on Compassionate grounds 7/8/18 [elsewhere states 30/7/18].
[Group Trans.??] EC Lab Centre   5/1/19
Despatched to dispersal centre, Crystal Palace 18/2/19

To Class Z     9/3/19

[Later in Records, but chronologically earlier, Norfolk R crossed out and Labour Corps written...}

24 IBD Joined No.3 Entrenching Battalion 24/3/16

"To join Bn."  11/5/16
" To Hospital"  14/7/16
"From Hospital"  16/7/16
"Wounded"  15/9/16
"4 GH, Camiers, GSW: Arm R. To England, Brighton  21/9/16"

Service France 11 months, Palestine 1 year. Wounded Right Shoulder 1918.


 

This is brilliant thank you for your help @Matlock1418@PRC@Dai Bach y Sowldiwr.

So taking from this he joined the 9th Battalion in not long before the Battle of the Somme began. He was likely injured 15th September 1916 at the Quadrilateral he was then transfered home. Where he then joined the 1/4th in Eygpt and then served in palastine.

What actions were the 1/4th in during that time period in Palastine? (31st May 1917 - May 1918). I'm struggling to find a war diary for this battalion at that time.

Edited 19 March by AMR048

[Matlock1418]

10 minutes ago, AMR048 said:

Is there some way of finding the battalion war diary for the Somme

9NR WD seems amongst these at TNA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_srt=3&_q="WO+95"+"Norfolk+Regiment"+"9+Battalion"

M

[AMR048]

7 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

9NR WD seems amongst these at TNA https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_srt=3&_q="WO+95"+"Norfolk+Regiment"+"9+Battalion"

M

i just found these since writing my last post but thank you  

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

36 minutes ago, AMR048 said:

What actions were the 1/4th in during that time period in Palastine? (31st May 1917 - May 1918). I'm struggling to find a war diary for this battalion at that time.

1/4 Norfolk war diary for this period (Jun 16-Oct 19) is in 163 Brigade diaries at Kew.
Unfortunately, they're not digitized, so reading them, copying etc. will mean having to visit or pay a researcher to do it for you.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557810

Edited 19 March by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[AMR048]

4 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

24 IBD Joined No.3 Entrenching Battalion 24/3/16

"To join Bn."  11/5/16

what does the 24 IBD stand for? 

And if he left May 1916 to join the 9th battalion he must've joined the entrenching battalion in England before moving to france?