More Somme Relics

[Rob Gray]

I can't believe that people are prepared to pay these sort of prices for junk like this; £6.00 for an old shell base, £25.00 for a barbed wire picket..!!!

Still, I suppose it's very easy for us to condemn those seeking to profit from actively searching for such relics, but lets not forget that many "Legitimate" locals also appear to be prepared to profit in the same way, i.e. the owner of Le Tommy Cafe in Pozieres has a recently enlarged rear garden stuffed full of all sorts of goodies, that could not possibly be acquired from taking a casual stroll across a ploughed field.

Also, those that visit the Musee D'Arbris underneath the Basilique in Albert will also be offered a whole range of "Genuine Battlefield Souvenirs" in the gift shop on their way out.

Who's right and who's wrong in all this..??

Rob.

[Max Poilu]

Who's right and who's wrong in all this..??

It's a good question Rob, this subject is discussed so often on the forum that the conclusion can only be that different people have different views.

However, the trade in souvenirs of the war by locals began long before the war had even finished and has continued ever since. Jane Kimball's recent definitive book on trench art contains endless reports of the fever of souvenir and war detrius collecting.

[terryewalker]

I have no problem, with people who want to sell or trade in souvenirs good luck to them. But what I do have a problem with is like the above post I placed.

If people are going to sell, get it right before selling.

[Mark A]

Rob,

As Giles says, it's certainly a debate that divides people. I think relics are fascinating- when I was very young I used to visit Bodiam Castle in Sussex with my dad and always hoped to find a sword that "a knight had left behind". So later as an A-level student, my love of history in place, when I first walked down the Sunken Road at Beaumont Hamel my heart leapt in my mouth to discover a British Water bottle, knocked flat by a tractor. I was amazed at the tangible evidence. Nearby was a British button and a French coin. I took those as well. I wish I hadn't. It's not something that I beat myself up about but I've just come around to the view that relics should be left there ( I know, for others to find and to sell on E-bay for £500- haha). Surface finds do have archaelogical value and when we take them we are doing damage.

The one thing I'm sure of is most of us here on the forum would deplore the kind of cack-handed pillaging going on in some places on the Western Front. It's dangerous, it's illegal, it destroys archaelogical record, it sticks two fingers up at a true understanding of history.

Anyway. What got to me was during the "last great relic debate" was a poem a forum member PM'd me. It's called "High Wood" by Philp Johnstone. First published in 1918 it's a fairly bitter satire of the battlefield tourism (and perhaps relic collecting) to come...

Ladies and gentlemen, this is High Wood,

Called by the French, Bois des Fourneaux;

The famous spot which in Nineteen-Sixteen

July, August and September was the scene

Of long and bitterly contested strife,

By reason of its High commanding site.

Observe the effect of shell-fire in the trees

Standing and fallen; here is wire; this trench

For months inhabited, twelve times changed hands;

(They soon fall in), used later as a grave.

It has been said on good authority

That in the fighting for this patch of wood

Were killed somewhere above eight thousand men,

Of whom the greater part were buried here,

This mound on which you stand being ...

Madame, please, You are requested kindly not to touch

Or take away the Company's property

As souvenirs; you'll find we have on sale

A large variety, all guaranteed.

As I was saying, all is as it was,

This is an unknown British officer,

The tunic having lately rotted off.

Please follow me - this way ... the path, sir, please,

The ground which was secured at great expense

The Company keeps absolutely untouched,

And in that dug-out (genuine) we provide

Refreshments at a reasonable rate.

You are requested not to leave about

Paper, or ginger-beer bottles, or orange-peel,

There are waste-paper baskets at the gate.

Mark (off his soap box)

[SPotter]

I notice that the website blatantly advertises the fact that the finds were made with the use of metal detectors. Regardless of the morality of digging, I was of the opinion that the use of these was strictly forbidden? As he is advertising finds from all regions then he would have to have a countrywide exemption from the usual rules rather than just a cosy agreement with the local Prefet. Could one of our French Pals raise this issue with the relevant authorities in France to at least get clarification?

Steve

[Rob Gray]

Mark,

Thanks for the poem - very interesting and thought provoking.

I too, have a background in formal Archaeology, having undertaken many "digs" during the 60's and 70's in the St Albans area on Roman buildings, many nearly 2000 years old.

As members of the local Society, we took a keen interest in the excavation, recording and subsequent removal of many Roman burials. These were all properly documented and any notable finds were stored; many are currently on display in the Roman Museum at St Albans.

I would have to say that virtually all of our digs were "rescue digs" on sites due to be re-developed, but in terms of "surface finds" being of any significance, the fact is that they were not. Once an object has been disturbed from it's original resting place, by ploughing or otherwise, it is virtually worthless in Archaeological terms.

That's why I still enjoy walking the ploughed fields of the Somme area, following trench maps and picking up shrapnel balls, nosecaps and the occasional belt buckle, I personally don't have a problem with it, as none are sold on, and most are given away to other "new" visitors to the area, eager for a memento of their visit.

I would, however, draw the line on any excavation whatsoever, as I believe that what lays below the surface untouched to date should remain that way forever.

Rob.

[terryewalker]

To tell the truth, I don't know how he got them, in this country? Some years ago while I was stationed in Chilwell, Nottingham with the EOD, we were called out to a farm house near Louth, this lad and his father had all kind of stuff, dating back to the first world war. It was wall to wall it took four 4x4 bedfords wagons to move the lot, some were still alive.

[Tom Morgan]

An aspect we haven't covered is the very strong desire of many people in this country to own any kind of relic from the Western Front. I've lost count of the number of people who have contacted me via my website to ask, "Is it true that you can still see bullets, badges, buttons and other bits of equipment just lying on the ground?" This has become a sort of "well-known fact" and lots of people want to put it to the test.

For many people, the chance of finding something is one of the main reasons for visiting, and they'll take the opportunity to spend any amount of time, no matter how short, looking in the fields. Once they start, the activity becomes compelling, and I've guided lots of school parties where we have been held up by the late return of group members who could not be persuaded to stop searching. Often, the teacher in charge can't be roped in to tell them to hurry up because he or she is leading the search, desperate to find even the smallest thing.

When you get to meet lots of first-time visitors, you notice that for many of them, part of the dream has been to come to these places and find something. I don't know if other guides would agree with this observation, but if it is as widespread as I think, it goes some way to explaining why people are prepared to pay so much on ebay for tat. There are people who aren't quite able to make the trip yet and find their own odds and ends (maybe after years of dreaming about it,) but are being given the opportunity to own some relic pieces. By paying big money for what is effectively someone else's garden-rubbish, they effectively encourage people to move out of their own gardens when there is nothing left, and consider digging-up important sites to keep up the supply.

Tom

[Mat McLachlan]

Our friend is obviously not keen for negative publicity - he's deleted all the comments in his guestbook and replaced them with a single canned 'thanks for the good work' message.

Nice try mate...

[Mat McLachlan]

Tom,

I think you are right. It is human nature for people to want to take away something tangible from a historic site. It's been going on since the war ended (the famous "Don't touch a stone" sign in the then-ruined Ypres after the war a good example).

I know when I first went to the battlefields I was keen to find some evidence of the soldiers who had gone before me, but I think the important point is context. To me it is pointless buying a relic on eBay because it's just rusty old junk unless I was the one to find it. To research the location of a famous action, then stand there on the spot after having narrowed down the location of XYZ trench, and then find a cartridge case that was last handled almost 90 years ago is a profound experience. The same cartridge case dug up by someone else and sold to me for five quid is useless.

It's an endless debate that has already taken up heaps of space on the Forum, but I'm sure we all agree that the type of wholesale cultural vandalism engaged in by our eBay friend is appalling.

I'll be in France in June by the way Tom - maybe I'll run into you.

Cheers,

Mat

[Max Poilu]

Just to perhaps play Devil's Advocate for a moment - we all believe the law is in place to make taking anything so trivial as even a shrapnel ball technicaly illegal and certainly any sort of physical digging or use of metal detectors is illegal. However, if it is your land, if you own a field, a back garden or even a wood who in law can say you cannot do as you wish and dig away to your heart's content?

In a purely technical way and for argument's sake what is the difference between the Somme Association recently digging up the land they own in Thiepval Wood and removing artifacts and Tony Strippoli digging for his own gain. Obviously I know one is done under archeological conditions with all the good intent that entails but did the Somme asscoiation have to apply for some special exemption from the law? At the end of the day if it is illegal to dig it is illegal to dig, unless presumably a special licence is granted?

Going back to my previous point the gathering and sale of relics and souvenirs had been a non-stop trade before the war even ended. I would argue that it probably reached it's zenith in the 20's/30's but with eBay and the internet it perhaps seems more prevelent nowadays? There are many old stories of the villagers annual shrapnel ball harvests - perhaps it was a legitimate business then - those conducting it in the main were locals trying to rebuild their lives, obviously the same cannot be said today. And of course in the past far more items of far better quality could be found without a spade but do we seriously believe hundreds if not thousands of dug-outs, trench systems, pill boxes etc were not pillaged and stripped in their entirety?

Some consider any hunting of relics as grave robbing - I must say this is rather a stretch of the imagination IMHO - searching in a farmers field is one thing, the same in Delville Wood or any such site is obviously another. But in the post war period was it considered grave robbing then? Or is it just grave robbing now due to the passage of time?

My view, as stated many times in these discussions is that the use of detectors or any sort of physical digging is wrong but surface finds are fair game. Just to repeat a question I posed earlier:

Last time I was in France, 2 months ago and walking not a million miles from Paul's house I found, on the surface a piece of French clay pipe and a small penknife within 50 yards of each other. Both Great War period. What to do?:

1: Leave them there.

2: Report the find to the authorities as possible evidence of a body below.

3: Find the farmer who owns the land and give them to him.

4: Keep them, preserve them and the location and know they will never be lost but preserved for future generations.

Different people will have different views

[Mark A]

Rob,

I'm not actually an archaeologist. Okay, I've watched Time Team, ha, ha. Interesting that you say surface finds have no use archaelogically, as it runs contrary to what I've read both in books and on the internet and when I've actually had the chance to speak to archaeologists. I'm not saying you're wrong by the way, just going on what I've managed to understand! For instance:

"But surface findings are of significant value also in traditional archaeological surveys. Including WW1 surface findings! For example, when the I.A.P. (Belgian Institute of Archaeology) surveyed the proposed A19 motorway extension at Pilckem Ridge last year, in order to evaluate the historical value of the battlefields, sites with concentrations of artefacts on the surface were mapped as indicators of significant WW1-historical sites! Had the artefacts in the ploughed fields been removed by collectors or farmers before this survey, these sites had neither been found nor documented (and they had certainly not been chosen for excavation this year)." Posted by Fabiansson in another thread (to be found on the Great War Forum Archive)

Anyway, my lack of archaeological knowledge is precisely why I leave relics alone now. I'm a layman, I don't want to blunder in and become part of a process where the battlefields are picked clean. Okay, this clearly isn't going to happen in our lifetime, but two hundred, three hundred years from now, will our children's children just have grid references?

mark

[Max]

Our friend is obviously not keen for negative publicity - he's deleted all the comments in his guestbook and replaced them with a single canned 'thanks for the good work' message.

Nice try mate...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

After one or two further comments he has obviously decided that vox pop is not his thing and has removed the guestbook facility.

Andy

[Mat McLachlan]

He may have removed the link to his guestbook, but the guestbook itself is still live.

So, for anyone who missed reading some of the colourful posts from visitors to his site, click here.

[robbie]

Thanks Matt. I just added my tuppence worth.

Robbie

[spike10764]

I can't believe the smug looks on their faces....... this sort of thing cannot be right