CROONAERT Posted 22 April , 2005 Share Posted 22 April , 2005 Anyway, here's a scan of something that'll get the blood boiling for a few forum members...I'll just add that they were dug up using metal detector(s), and that human remains were found in the vicinity of them!!! Before I become ostracised as the Erich von Stroheim of the forum, I'd better clarify .... they were searched for, found and dug up legally by an official (German) government body. The remains were treated accordingly and the tags ended up in my possession , legally, through a representative of this organisation. See how I could advertise them though? (If I was ever to wish to sell them, which I wouldn't!) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 22 April , 2005 Share Posted 22 April , 2005 Where do you live Dave and there's me thinking you would get hot under the collar about "Vals old knickers"!! Yeah, the trade off is alive and kicking. Regards, Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salientguide Posted 22 April , 2005 Share Posted 22 April , 2005 I must add my twopennorth to say I find this extremely disturbing. It is one thing to pick up the odd relic on ones exploration. although this is now illegal, but this appears to be a wholesale removal of battlerfield debris with the associated risks of unexploded ordance, I note many lots contain grenade parts -what condition are they in, and surely wherever these are coming from we know there will be human remains. These must be being disturbed. Not only does this make an absoluye mockery of the French law, discussed at length on other threads but the danger is also if we encourage this or turn a blind eye to one person how long before others realise there is easy money to be made by this type of sub grave robbing and the problem gets worse. SG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 22 April , 2005 Share Posted 22 April , 2005 the danger is also if we encourage this or turn a blind eye to one person how long before others realise there is easy money to be made by this type of sub grave robbing and the problem gets worse. But there's always been money to be made from it, and it's been a fact known since pilgrims were sold "souvenirs" back in the 1920's! What's actually happened is that this "trade" died off during and after WW2 and has only recently achieved it's "renaissance" period of late after interest has blossomed. As for "grave robbing" - OK, some is, I can't deny that, and I can't condone it either, but don't forget how much ***** is left on a battlefield after the soldiers go home! This is what 70% of what's being sold is! It's the same stuff as was sold in the 1920's, only a bit rustier!!! dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 22 April , 2005 Share Posted 22 April , 2005 And, just for example, Mrs N's Grandfather was in the desert WW2. Arabian Gentleman sells "very old coins". Valued by Christies about 12 months back, 65% forged. This trade is as old as the hills. Seems to be rearing its ugly head again but with better techniques to boot. Regards, Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 24 April , 2005 Share Posted 24 April , 2005 The 1/7/16 compass is now at £177.99. Here:- http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...6526649331&rd=1 Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Noble Posted 24 April , 2005 Share Posted 24 April , 2005 "User I.D. kept private". Again. Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Dodd Posted 24 April , 2005 Share Posted 24 April , 2005 I know who this seller is he offered me the compass to Neil before didn't buy it though, he was already a member of E-Bay but changed his username for some reason. Most of the items he found himself but I don't know about the dog-tags and he bought the compass from a farmer, it wasn't found by his father. Conor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon R Posted 25 April , 2005 Share Posted 25 April , 2005 Well, we might think this is bad but just take a look at the 'antiquities' section on ebay, now that's real grave robbing! It's shocking, utterly stupifying the kind of artefacts that come up for sale, scandalous, morally and intellectually bankrupt. It's also, in the main, illegal! Any country signed up to UNESCO conventions should not allow cultural material like that to leave its shores. Sad to say, such international laws are pretty moribund in the majority of cases. No-one really gives a hoot, it's all a commodity, you try and say otherwise or suggest regulation and you're interfering in the free market! Meanwhile, archaeological sites all over the world get dug to death by people who do not give a flying f**k about anything as far as I can see. Bah humbug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Gray Posted 25 April , 2005 Share Posted 25 April , 2005 We Brits have a fairly good track record over past centuries in looting and plundering whatever we have wanted to take back to England, in deference to the wishes of the local residents. This was sanctioned at the highest levels of goverment, so perhaps we can't really complain if a local Frenchman wishes to earn himself a few Euro's selling battlefield debris back to us that we exported to France 90 years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 26 April , 2005 Share Posted 26 April , 2005 Should 'deference' read as 'defiance'? I hope that was uttered with your tongue firmly in your cheek Rob. I believe the locals encouraged our 'exports' ninety years ago, and clamoured for more. I had understood that they were shipped across in the cause of freedom for both nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 26 April , 2005 Share Posted 26 April , 2005 The 1/7/16 compass went for £257. I must say it looks OK to me, but recent posts have made me suspicious of anything out of the ordinary, particularly attempts to identify an item to a casualty. Too suspicious? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat McLachlan Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 Don't think there's much argument about whether these relics have been dug up anymore - the seller has posted a link to his website on a recent auction: www.somme-excavations.com It's got some lovely photos of him and his mates digging up half of France. Check out this little gem - the caption is "Re-opening of a pill box located near casualties corner, between Contalmaison and Pozieres." Nice to see that these important historic sites are being treated with the care and respect they deserve. Mat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Beckett Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 Thats the one that T M and I looked at in 2003. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat McLachlan Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 Hi Peter, Do you mean that's the pillbox you looked at in 2003? What a shame it's been ransacked. With the amount of stuff these blokes found there, it's a miracle they've still got all their limbs. Is there anything that can be done to shut their grubby little operation down? Mat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 Mat, He has replied to you via the guestbook. More or less giving you the finger I'm afraid. Supposedly, he's got authorisation - all these threads I've read on this forum have said this is illegal. Maybe some of the previous posters have been right - it's more illegal if you're not French! Une règle pour certains, des autres pour chacun autrement! Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 When a det in one of those Granatanwerfers blows 'Strippoli' Tony's little dickie off he won't be looking so full of himself... 'Strippoli Tony'...? A bloke's got to earn a living I suppose! A very brazen photograph and rather foolish to show off in that way I would have thought. As has been stated in many other topics the law is there ( see here ) and sometimes enforced. One thing to pick up a shrapnel ball, another to excavate this lot! However, there are certain 'local' arrangements in France despite what the law might say - as Stuart says it's more illegal if you are not French, or to put it another way - if you don't know the right people. Whatever the situation, these pair certainly don't look like the average official demineur... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark A Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 I'm pretty shocked by this. It's vandalism, pure and simple, digging this stuff up. It's now just worthless rusty metal now that it's archaelogical links have been severed. And to see this guy posing like a rap star on his home page... Ug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Robins Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 The same "gentleman" is now a well known local colector. I came across him at Easter, with a table of relics for sale near the Cross of Sacrifice at Lochnagar Crater. I found it all rather distasteful. I am afraid this thread can only have increased the exposure of his 'little business' and the price tendered on the compass reflects this. My perfect leather cased compass of the same pattern cost a mere £65 at a local auction - uhmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 I'm pretty shocked by this. It's vandalism, pure and simple, digging this stuff up. It's now just worthless rusty metal now that it's archaelogical links have been severed. And to see this guy posing like a rap star on his home page... Ug. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Appalling - would the relevant authorities be interested in prosecuting this man? Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KIRKY Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 Also have a look at www.dugup.co.uk Kirky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 A computer question: If you leave a message in his guestbook, is he able to track you down? I would like to give him a piece of my mind, but if he happily engages in grave-robbing, he is not going to worry about sending a virus etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 I considered just turning up at one of the military fairs he advertises on this: http://www.dugup.co.uk/ Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 If you click on Legal at http://www.dugup.co.uk/ one of them is aiming a rifle at the viewer, rather threatening really.. First click on www.dugup.co.uk then clickon jay X homepage and then click on Legal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryewalker Posted 27 April , 2005 Share Posted 27 April , 2005 Well had a look at the site, and could not stop laughing. Why because if you go on this page: http://www.dugup.co.uk/buttons/napbtn.1.htm from F515 to F467 it showns you buttons which the author of the site said its Royal Artillery Button c1795 WRONG The buttons are Royal Army Ordnance Corps not Royal Artillery. Why do people do this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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