POW JOHN THOMPSON

[Carollondon]

Thank you so much really appreciate it 

[Matlock1418]

20 minutes ago, clk said:

My guess would be that he was was transferred to the Suffolks either very shortly before he left from Southampton, or shortly after he arrived in France at an Infantry Base Depot (link) before being sent into the field.

MIC is only for the Suffolk Regt so if the sequencing is correct, and I would think it likely is, then I would suggest he transferred into them before he got to France.

M

[AndrewSid]

3 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

MIC is only for the Suffolk Regt so if the sequencing is correct, and I would think it likely is, then I would suggest he transferred into them before he got to France

I would agree,  men rebadged after even a day or so  at the Depot still had seem to have had the original regiment recorded on the Mic and sometimes the roll. 

Carol -  you are extremely fortunate so much of his service history survives.  Do you have access to his service record?  For a detailed chronology and background it may be worth joining as a member, even for a trial period. 

Andy

[Carollondon]

3 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

I would agree,  men rebadged after even a day or so  at the Depot still had seem to have had the original regiment recorded on the Mic and sometimes the roll. 

Carol -  you are extremely fortunate so much of his service history survives.  Do you have access to his service record?  For a detailed chronology and background it may be worth joining as a member, even for a trial period. 

Andy

Hi no I had not idea of any of this information my mum told me he was a POW And wanted to look into it for her she’s 94 now and I’m so excited to tell her any information about her dad 

he went on to work in the Royal small arms factory Enfield until his retirement 

[AndrewSid]

Carol,

Others here have done the hard work but I thought it might be useful to summarise chronologically:

He volunteered and enlisted on the 5th July 1915 and reported for duty on the 7th aged 24 years and 1 month.  He joined the 22nd Battalion the Middlesex Regiment and was issued the service number G/16062. This was a new Battalion that was formed in Mill Hill in June 1915 and was locally raised.  His address was just eight miles away and perhaps something drew him to volunteer for this unit? However this was a Bantam Battalion.  These were units established for men below the minimum entry height for military service.  The height minimum was 5ft 3in and Johns records shows he was 5ft ft 1in.

A period  of Infantry training would have followed and although it’s difficult to decipher in his service records he appears to have transferred to the 12th Battalion the Suffolk Regiment on the 1st of April 1916, which makes sense as the 22nd Battalion the Middlesex Regiment disbanded in the UK on the 02nd of April. He was issued the new service number 27336. He left Southampton for France on the 5th of June 1916. He was promoted to Cpl on the 15th of July 1916.  He was then wounded on the 23rd of July with a gunshot wound (this could have been a bullet or more likely shrapnel) in the right knee and left leg.

Sent back to the UK to recover for the Winter of 1916/17.  He recovered and was sent back to France on the 28th March 1917. After some time at the Depot he was I believe posted to the 9th Battalion the Suffolk Regiment, joining them in the field from the 28th of June 1917.  On the 12th of December he requested to return to the ranks and gave up his Corporal stripes.

The 9th Battalion was disbanded in February 1918 as part of an Army wide reorganisation.  John was transferred to the 11th Battalion on the 5th of February 1918.  From the 22nd February to the 3rd of March 1918 he was fortunate enough to receive leave and likely was able to return back to London.  

He rejoined his unit shortly before the German Spring offensive.  He was with the 11th  Battalion when on the 21st/22nd of March he was reported missing.  There is a medical note saying he suffered from deafness and shock as a result of this action when captured.  His POW card says he was in A Company (4 Companies in a Battalion A-D).  This will be useful when reading the battalion war diary and understanding how he was captured. 

On the 18th of July he was confirmed as a POW,  A difficult time for the family as whether he was dead or a prisoner would not have been known.  He came home on the 8th of December 1918.  He finally left the Army on 10th April 1919. 

To get a feel of what his various Battalions were up to I would suggest downloading the  various war diaries for the time periods of relevance that David posted earlier. 

Id caveat the above with the fact this a quick run through and others on here may wish to correct or add!

Andy

 

Edited 18 March by AndrewSid

[Carollondon]

1 hour ago, AndrewSid said:

Carol,

Others here have done the hard work but I thought it might be useful to summarise chronologically:

He volunteered and enlisted on the 5th July 1915 and reported for duty on the 7th aged 24 years and 1 month.  He joined the 22nd Battalion the Middlesex Regiment and was issued the service number G/16062. This was a new Battalion that was formed in Mill Hill in June 1915 and was locally raised.  His address was just eight miles away and perhaps something drew him to volunteer for this unit? However this was a Bantam Battalion.  These were units established for men below the minimum entry height for military service.  The height minimum was 5ft 3in and Johns records shows he was 5ft ft 1in.

A period  of Infantry training would have followed and although it’s difficult to decipher in his service records he appears to have transferred to the 12th Battalion the Suffolk Regiment on the 1st of April 1916, which makes sense as the 22nd Battalion the Middlesex Regiment disbanded in the UK on the 02nd of April. He was issued the new service number 27336. He left Southampton for France on the 5th of June 1916. He was promoted to Cpl on the 15th of July 1916.  He was then wounded on the 23rd of July with a gunshot wound (this could have been a bullet or more likely shrapnel) in the right knee and left leg.

Sent back to the UK to recover for the Winter of 1916/17.  He recovered and was sent back to France on the 28th March 1917. After some time at the Depot he was I believe posted to the 9th Battalion the Suffolk Regiment, joining them in the field from the 28th of June 1917.  On the 12th of December he requested to return to the ranks and gave up his Corporal stripes.

The 9th Battalion was disbanded in February 1918 as part of an Army wide reorganisation.  John was transferred to the 11th Battalion on the 5th of February 1918.  From the 22nd February to the 3rd of March 1918 he was fortunate enough to receive leave and likely was able to return back to London.  

He rejoined his unit shortly before the German Spring offensive.  He was with the 11th  Battalion when on the 21st/22nd of March he was reported missing.  There is a medical note saying he suffered from deafness and shock as a result of then action when captured.  His POW card says he was in A Company (4 Companies in a Battalion A-D).  This will be useful when reading the battalion war diary and understanding how he was captured. 

On the 18th of July he was confirmed as a POW,  A difficult time for the family as whether he was dead or a prisoner would not have been known.  He came home on the 8th of December 1918.  He finally left the Army on 10th April 1919. 

To get a feel of what his various Battalions were up to I would suggest downloading the  various war diaries for the time periods of relevance that David posted earlier. 

Id caveat the above with the fact this a quick run through and others on here may wish to correct or add!

Andy

 

Hi Andrew this is just fantastic and more than I could of ever dreamt of I shall be telling my mum all about him tomorrow as we knew none of this information 

he was a tiny man 5”1 and of slight built did you mean he was a corporal? How ? And would there be any photos ( big ask ) of the groups etc 

I homely can’t thank you enough for your time and help 

[Carollondon]

29 minutes ago, Carollondon said:

Hi Andrew this is just fantastic and more than I could of ever dreamt of I shall be telling my mum all about him tomorrow as we knew none of this information 

he was a tiny man 5”1 and of slight built did you mean he was a corporal? How ? And would there be any photos ( big ask ) of the groups etc 

I homely can’t thank you enough for your time and help 

What does return to ranks mean why do you give up your stripes? Sorry I’m learning ***

[AndrewSid]

Carol,

There is a link below to the very impressive long long trail website which is worth a wide read.   The link below explains ranks.

He was given responsibility early on and he kept his rank for some time.  As a Corporal he would have commanded a Section of eight men.  Pre war it took many years for a solider to be considered, selected and if deemed capable promoted.  More risk was taken in WW1 due to the vast numbers.  Men are sometimes given Lance Corporal rank where they commanded a half section to see how they would cope.  This happened to John and he was soon promoted to full Corporal. He latterly voluntarily went back to being a private.  Often men are demoted as not being up to the job.  This doesn’t appear to be the case according to his service records.

Why he decided to return to a private is not known.  Life as an infantryman was brutal and for whatever reason he wanted to be one of the men rather than a section commander.  It is not a bad thing.  Others may have a better view.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/british-army-ranks-during-the-great-war/

Photos will be tricky to find.  Presumably none in the family? Newspaper archives are one source. Or perhaps the Middlesex or Suffolk Regiment archives.  Soldiers are rarely named though.  Photos are often the Holy Grail for those without them.

Andy

Edited 18 March by AndrewSid

[Carollondon]

23 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

Carol,

There is a link below to the very impressive long long trail website which is worth a wide read.   The link below explains ranks.

He was given responsibility early on and he kept his rank for some time.  As a Corporal he would have commanded a Section of eight men.  Pre war it took many years for a solider to be considered, selected and if deemed capable promoted.  More risk was taken in WW1 due to the vast numbers.  Men are sometimes given Lance Corporal rank where they commanded a half section to see how they would cope.  This happened to John and he was soon promoted to full Corporal. He latterly voluntarily went back to being a private.  Often men are demoted as not being up to the job.  This doesn’t appear to be the case according to his service records.

Why he decided to return to a private is not known.  Life as an infantryman was brutal and for whatever reason he wanted to be one of the men rather than a section commander.  It is not a bad thing.  Others may have a better view.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/british-army-ranks-during-the-great-war/

Photos will be tricky to find.  Presumably none in the family? Newspaper archives are one source. Or perhaps the Middlesex of Suffolk Regiment archives.  Soldiers are rarely named though.  Photos are often the Holy Grail for those without them.

Andy

Thank you so so much for explaining all that I’m so happy 

no photos I’m sad to say but fingers crossed 🤞 

 

 

[Carollondon]

One more quickie would he have had medals ? 

[Carollondon]

My Grt Grandfather was killed in Bullecourt May 1917 

I wonder if the two men were close to each other fighting ? 

[DavidOwen]

28 minutes ago, Carollondon said:

One more quickie would he have had medals ? 

Yes his MIC shows he was awarded the British War Medal and Victory Medal (courtesy Ancestry).

[Carollondon]

54 minutes ago, DavidOwen said:

Yes his MIC shows he was awarded the British War Medal and Victory Medal (courtesy Ancestry).

Thank you so much 

[clk]

Hi Carol,

On 17/03/2024 at 18:35, AndrewSid said:

I would agree,  men rebadged after even a day or so  at the Depot still had seem to have had the original regiment recorded on the Mic and sometimes the roll. 

As a generalism, I too would agree. However (and please don't ask me to prove it), but over the years I've seen a fair few examples where that didn't appear to be the case. My guess would be that when the rolls were compiled shortly after the war, the clerks would have been 'snowed under', and it would have depended on how 'the rules' were interpretated and applied.

Regards
Chris

 

 

[Carollondon]

12 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Carol,

As a generalism, I too would agree. However (and please don't ask me to prove it), but over the years I've seen a fair few examples where that didn't appear to be the case. My guess would be that when the rolls were compiled shortly after the war, the clerks would have been 'snowed under', and it would have depended on how 'the rules' were interpretated and applied.

Regards
Chris

 

 

Thanks so much for your information call