George Millar Posted 15 March Share Posted 15 March Tom, Sorry for the confusion ref the 13 wounded, I misread the war diary. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost in Tilloy Posted 15 March Share Posted 15 March Hello Tom Thanks for the transcription of the WD entries George supplied. I wonder if the location mentioned on 6th August is "12 Tree Copse" as that is the name of the cemetery where Pte John Begg Rosie and 2nd Lt Neil Leslie Campbell, who were reported killed on 6th and either 7th/8th August respectively, are buried/commemorated. Regards LIT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Millar Posted 15 March Share Posted 15 March (edited) LIT, The war diary does show 12 Tree Copse (see attached) so I would assume that it is the same place where the cemetery is now located (but I could be wrong). This is from the CWGC: "Between 1 May and the beginning of June, the 29th Indian Infantry Brigade and 42nd (East Lancashire) Division landed on the peninsula. With these reinforcements, the Allied force at Helles pushed forward once more on 4 June, but again to little effect. A further attack between 28 June and 5 July at Gully Ravine inflicted heavy casualties on the Turkish forces, but despite local gains - at one point the line was pushed forward more than a kilometre - there was no breakthrough. By 13 July the advance at Helles was effectively over and the position remained unchanged until the evacuation in January 1916". "TWELVE TREE COPSE CEMETERY was made after the Armistice when graves were brought in from isolated sites and small burial grounds on the battlefields of April-August and December 1915. The most significant of these burial grounds were Geoghegan's Bluff Cemetery, which contained 925 graves associated with fighting at Gully Ravine in June-July 1915; Fir Tree Wood Cemetery, where the 29th Division and New Zealand Infantry Brigade fought in May 1915 and Clunes Vennel Cemetery, on the south side of Krithia, which contained 522 graves". George Edited 15 March by George Millar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 15 March Share Posted 15 March (edited) 2 hours ago, Lost in Tilloy said: I wonder if the location mentioned on 6th August is "12 Tree Copse" You can find 12 Tree Copse on the map previously given in this thread's page 1 The map below shows it for August 1915 EDIT: To further clarify the above post; today's CWGC cemetery named 'Twelve Tree Copse' is in fact sited a little to the north of where the original 12 trees stood in early 1915 Edited 15 March by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 15 March Author Share Posted 15 March (edited) On 15/03/2024 at 03:01, George Millar said: Tom, Sorry for the confusion ref the 13 wounded, I misread the war diary. George It is my mistake. On 25th the WD reads: "Capt. McPHERSON, 2nd Lt. McDONALD, 2nd Lt. REID and 3 Men Killed. Capt. McLEOD, 2nd Lt. GIBSON, 2nd Lt. SINCLAIR and 30 Men Wounded". So it is I who must apologize. I'm attaching an amended version of the WD. Kindest Regards, Tom. Here is my amended copy of my transcription of the War Diary. Tom. Edited 19 March by Tom Lang Updated No 3 Attachment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 15 March Author Share Posted 15 March The '?' in my transcription indicate that I can't properly read the handwriting. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 15 March Author Share Posted 15 March 5 hours ago, michaeldr said: You can find 12 Tree Copse on the map previously given in this thread's page 1 The map below shows it for August 1915 EDIT: To further clarify the above post; today's CWGC cemetery named 'Twelve Tree Copse' is in fact sited a little to the north of where the original 12 trees stood in early 1915 I've attached a snippet from the 1st map above from @michaeldr Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 15 March Author Share Posted 15 March (edited) I'd like to show photos of my local Dalserf War Memorial, Ashgillhead, Shawsburn, Lanarkshire (not to be confused with the Village of Dalserf). Ashgillhead is located within the boundaries of the Parish of Dalserf, about 3 miles from the Village of Dalserf. The Memorial is located in the grounds of Roriston Church but is a Civic War Memorial. Courtesy of Google Maps (Street View) and The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project : The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project :: View topic - Dalserf War Memorial, Ashgill, South Lanarkshire (bizhat.com) Tom. Edited 15 March by Tom Lang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Millar Posted 15 March Share Posted 15 March Tom, I think the ? on the 23rd looks like 11 men reported for duty from MALTA. Would this make sense? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 15 March Author Share Posted 15 March (edited) On 15/03/2024 at 10:46, George Millar said: Tom, I think the ? on the 23rd looks like 11 men reported for duty from MALTA. Would this make sense? George I thought that too, but since I was 'transcribing' the text I didn't want to 'impose my impression' which might alter the 'value' of the text. With your 'eagle eye' colliding with mine, I'll change my transcription. It is great to have as many 'eyes' on this as is possible. Many Thanks. Tom. Edited 19 March by Tom Lang Updated Attachment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 15 March Author Share Posted 15 March 10 hours ago, michaeldr said: Tom's transcription looks correct - the word is Bivouaced It should have read Bivouacked, but does not read '13 wounded' @michaeldr I now understand the reference '13 wounded'. I didn't 'get it' earlier. I transcribed it as written, and I'm sure you can 'see' that. Thanks, Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 15 March Author Share Posted 15 March On 12/03/2024 at 02:34, michaeldr said: <snip> This is going to be difficult to pin down. The battalion arrived in the front line at Worcester Flat at 3pm on 14th August They came out of the line and were at Gully Beach by 7pm on the 19th August Between those dates/times the 5th RS's WD does not record any casualties However, the Brigade WD indicates that at this time the 5th RSs contributed to a Composite Battalion made up from elements of 4th Worcesters, 2nd Hants plus 5 officers + 120 other ranks 1/5th Royal Scots [The RS's WD puts it a little differently saying that on 13th August, 3 officers went to the Hampshire Rgt and 2 officers + 100 NCOs & men went to the Worcesters] One of the reasons for this was that the Worcesters had lost so heavily in the attack on 6th August [16 officers & 752 other ranks]. There does not appear to be a Worcesters' WD for the period from 7th August till the end of the month. As the 5th RS WD does not record any casualties, then it is possible that your man could have been wounded while serving with the Worcesters. Another possibility which cannot be ruled out is that his fatal wound was received earlier - before the period 14th-19th August the last casualties given in the WD were suffered by the battalion were on 6th/7th August <snip> I tried the TNA for the War Diary of the 4th Worcesters but can't find any reference to them (it must be Friday!) I'll now try the Brigade WD. Kindest Regards, Tom. PS Just catching up with you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Millar Posted 15 March Share Posted 15 March Tom, It was my mistake with regard to the 13 wounded, I misread it incorrectly. As regards the 4th battalion Worcester's war diary, it is on Ancestry. what dates are you interested in? George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 15 March Share Posted 15 March (edited) On 12/03/2024 at 07:34, michaeldr said: There does not appear to be a Worcesters' WD for the period from 7th August till the end of the month. Presumably because of their very heavy losses in officers (and men) there are periods not covered by the 4th Worcesters WD. The NA ref is WO/95/4312 Image Ref: 467 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .......................................................................... 30th - the ship's name was the Osmanieh - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Osmanieh_(1906) [though Wiki's dates are a bit out!] 31st - The rest camp was on the island of Imbros (not Limbros) Edited 15 March by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Millar Posted 15 March Share Posted 15 March Tom, Attached a copy of the 4th Worcester' war diary for the 6th August. As michaeldr has already said, the war diary misses out the remainder of August and goes on to September. It will give you an impression of what it was like for the Worcesters and possibly the Royal Scots. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 15 March Author Share Posted 15 March 46 minutes ago, George Millar said: Tom, It was my mistake with regard to the 13 wounded, I misread it incorrectly. As regards the 4th battalion Worcester's war diary, it is on Ancestry. what dates are you interested in? George 30 minutes ago, michaeldr said: Presumably because of their very heavy losses in officers (and men) there are periods not covered by the 4th Worcesters WD. The NA ref is WO/95/4312 Image Ref: 467 ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .......................................................................... 30th - the ship's name was the Osmanieh - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Osmanieh_(1906) [though Wiki's dates are a bit out!] 31st - The rest camp was on the island of Imbros (not Limbros) 12 minutes ago, George Millar said: Tom, Attached a copy of the 4th Worcester' war diary for the 6th August. As michaeldr has already said, the war diary misses out the remainder of August and goes on to September. It will give you an impression of what it was like for the Worcesters and possibly the Royal Scots. George Many Thanks to you both. You are way ahead of me. I've been off searching TNA for the 29 Div 88 Bde, only to find 95/4312 is another capture by Ance$try ($pit). @michaeldr I've corrected my transcription (page attached). Many Thanks for your big help. @George Millar many thanks to you. I'll now start a transcription for the 4th Worcesters. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Lang Posted 16 March Author Share Posted 16 March @michaeldr @George Millar I've transcribed the pages from the 4th Worcesters. I used the 29 Div. 88 Bde as a front page to explain the missing parts. Tom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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