RMLI Victory R M brigade (Gallipoli)

[arantxa]

wounded 13th July 1915

I dont understand the difference between the RMLI and RND  who were the Victory Royal Marine Brigade 

 

any knowledge would be great thanks

[arantxa]

ive just read some bits put on here..but on medals why are some listed as RND and some as RNLI as i understand ot the RMLI became the RND on shore but i may be wrong 

[Keith_history_buff]

Given that the search facility allows searches on three letter and four letter words, it should be possible to tap the wealth of information recorded on the forum. Given your longevity on the forum, I was surprised by the question, but I found its structure confusing too.

Some battalions of the Royal Naval Division were named after Admirals, and were comprised of ratings of the Royal Navy. The other battalions were composed of Royal Marines, and these Battalions were named after their GD, be it Portsmouth, or Chatham, or Plymouth, or Deal (I seem to recall).

Your question appears to be in relation to a particular individual, who was 'wounded 13th July 1915'. Can you provide their name, rank or rating, and their official number, please
i.e.
J56789 Able Seaman Jack Tar
PLY/12345 Corporal Roger Jolly

[Keith_history_buff]

There is no such thing as the 'Victory Royal Marine Brigade'. It sounds like a proposed unit designation that was rejected by the Nigerian Army during the Biafra War, which is out of the time period for the GWF.

[arantxa]

Thanks 

yes I did read up on past statements but I still dont understand this separation on the medals it defn says Victory Royal Marine Brigade on the papers …it’s on my work computer so will copy and paste it tomorrow 

[Keith_history_buff]

I am going to post the following

 

[arantxa]

Thank you what I still dont understand and perhaps you can explain 

naming on medals why do sone say RNLI and others say RND is this because rnli transferred to RND and medals are listed with the first deployment I understand that the ones at Gallipoli were all RND but the medals are still listed as RNLI

The screen shot is saying everyone at Gallipoli fought as RND is that correct 

[Keith_history_buff]

Okay, so we know that he was a Plymouth GD Royal Marine, that is helpful. Can you provide his name, in order that he can be looked up on the Royal Marine medal roll. or do you have access to FindMyPast?

I am a big fan of  the (Jack Clegg memorial) digitised Royal Marine WW1 campaign medal roll

[Keith_history_buff]

So, I was thrown by the other random thread that you dropped a link to, and it won't be until tomorrow that you are able to get the information from my first question to you.

My second question is this:
Which specific campaign medals do you have for your marine/rating, where you find the naming peculiar?

What we have at the moment are some poorly articulated statements, and I would like to identify both the specific medal types and the individual who was the medal recipient.

Although I posted some links to GWF threads, I think I missed a trick insofar as Chris Baker's longlongtrail is usually the go-to cyber location for WW1, for clear overviews of topics, and I think this is the case in this instance too.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/63rd-royal-naval-division/

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-man-of-the-royal-naval-division/

 

[Keith_history_buff]

So, for now, I think you need to get your head around the Naval Discipline Act, and what this means in terms of the record keeping practices of the Royal Marines in particular, and the Royal Navy in general, as the Senior Service has a very different philosophy to the British Army.

 

The following should make for an interesting read too, but I gather you will be busy for a while before you can respond.

 

[horatio2]

Setting aside, for now, the medal query, perhaps the following will help explain the OP's "VICTORY (RM Brigade)" puzzle. I should first confirm that the frequently mentioned Royal National Lifeboat Institution (RNLI) plays no part in this topic which will deal with the Royal Marines Light Infantry (RMLI).

VICTORY (RM Brigade) is an entry found in the ADM 159 RM ledger records. It invariably means the man has been drafted to an RMLI battalion of the RND. Sometimes the sub-division of the VICTORY pay office is recorded – usually VICTORY V or VICTORY VI.

The 3^rd (RM) Brigade of the RND was formed in August 1914 and, as previously noted and with a few deviations, was formed of RMLI battalions named for the three RMLI Grand Divisions whence they drew their manpower, Chatham, Portsmouth and Plymouth, plus a fourth, Deal Battalion, that took its manpower from all three Divisions.

The 3^rd (RM) Brigade of RMLI battalions remained in being until August 1915 at Gallipoli. At that time the Chatham and Deal Battalions were merged to form the 1^st RMLI Battalion (1/RMLI) and Portsmouth and Plymouth Battalions were merged to form the 2^nd RMLI Battalion (2/RMLI). 1/RMLI and 2/RMLI were then brigaded with two naval battalions and became 2^nd (RN) Brigade of the RND.

Despite  the RM Brigade not longer existing, “VICTORY (RM Brigade)” remained in use in the ledgers as shorthand for a draft to the RND. The actual draft could, typically, be to RN Depot Blandford for an RMLI reserve battalion or to 1/  or 2/RMLI in the BEF. Ledger entries of later RMLI enlistments, for drafts to the RND in the BEF (1916-18), are more likely to be battalion specific but the VICTORY (RM Brigade) notation was in more or less continued use.

 

Edited 6 March by horatio2

[Keith_history_buff]

Going back to the medal question, let's take the following example of a Royal Marine who saw his combat debut at Gallipoli. I think this man, as a case study, is particularly pertinent as to what you are asking about.

Medals and naming:

1914-15 Star (Ply. 466-S-, Pte. H. J. Trigg, R.M.L.I.);
British War Medal (Ply. 466-S-. Pte. H. J. Trigg, R.M.L.I.); 
Victory Medal (Ply. 466-S-. Pte. H. J. Trigg, R.M.L.I.);

These are the trio of campaign medals to which he was entitled, and which he claimed. The emboldened text is marked on each of those medals.

Pertinent extract of Biography

PLY/466(S) Herbert John Trigg

Quote

enlisted for the Royal Marines at Liverpool on 7 October 1914. He served at Gallipoli from 25 28 April 1915 until 8 July 1915, when he was invalided to 17 General Hospital at Alexandria suffering from a septic foot. He was then attached to the Divisional Train at Sidi Bishr until readmitted to hospital with fever on 31 August, and again, with burns to his face, at Glymenpoule on 19 September. Invalided to England on 3 October 1915, he served with the B.E.F. in France from 27 May 1917, until again invalided on 27 August 1918

 

This is reproduced for non-commercial purposes, under fair use terms, acknowledging that this is courtesy of, and copyright of Noonans, the renowned auctioneers of medals and militaria, among other collectibles, and the source can be seen here, along with an image of the medals that were sold 18 months ago.
https://www.noonans.co.uk/auctions/archive/lot-archive/results/419142/

From what I understand, you have a 1914-15 Star question about a Royal Marine who first saw action at Gallipoli, who had enlisted for the duration of the war after the outbreak of hostilities. The naming convention on the 1914-15 Star is the same for the BWM and the VM as I understand it. The naming convention on the Mons Star (my choice of phrase for this medal) does differ, but this is outside of the scope of the original question.

 

I would have thought that for someone like yourself, with an interest in WW1 militaria and 600 sets of campaign medals, that it would make sense to purchase some of those key texts for WW1 medal collectors, in particular the collector companion guides which, although out of print, are spoken of very highly by all those I know that use them.

Williamson, Howard J. (2011). The Great War Medal Collectors Companion Volume I (1st ed.). ISBN 978-0-9527544-4-2. 
The book includes: – Campaign Medals. Full history of each medal, including Army Orders, Army Council Instructions & award criteria.

Williamson, Howard J. (2014). The Great War Medal Collectors Companion Volume II. ISBN 978-0-9527544-5-9.

Williamson, Howard J. (2014). The Great War Medal Collectors Companion Volume III. ISBN 978-0-95-275446-6

Below are the pertinent points, for this case study, with regard to the rules for the eligibility to the 1914-15 Star, as issued by the Admiralty

Admiralty Order 4045 – 24/12/1918

His Majesty the King having been pleased to approve the grant of a distinctive decoration to the Forces which took part in active operations of war up to the 31st December 1915, the following regulations for the award of the decoration as regards the Navy are issued for information:-

1.  
2.  
3.  
4. The star will be granted... (a) to officers and men... who were mobilized and served (1) at sea or (2) on shore within the theatres of military operation  (b)... (c)... (d)...
5.  
6.  
7.  
8.  
9. For the purpose of this Order the definition of "Theatres of War" is as in Appendix A below.

Appendix A

1.  
2. Eastern European theatre— To include all operations in (a) Greece, Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria from 5 October, 1915; (b) Gallipoli from 25 April, 1915, including the Aegean Islands, etc.
3.  
4.  
5.  
6.  
7.  
8.  

[Keith_history_buff]

Having covered off how his medals should be marked up, there is now the challenge of his biography, and how this may appear to differ from the manner in which clerks at the Admiralty would document the movements of ratings and marines, so as to conform with the Naval Discipline Act.

Herbert George Hayward enlisted for the duration of the war, under shorter terms than the standard 12 year duration. We can deduce this because it is a low number, and there is a "s" suffix to indicate a shorter term of service. PO indicates that he is a Portsmouth marine. 

His service record can be downloaded from The National Archives UK
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7858766

Below is my attempt to outline his career history, and I daresay there are some areas that can be improved upon. Any mistakes are mine. 

Please do consider the following forum rule:
Discussion will be conducted in a civil manner at all times.
Members must respect the right of others to express their opinion.
Threats or any form of harassment against another member are forbidden as are any statements that could be construed as defamatory

Herbert George Hayward enlisted in the Royal Marine Light Infantry, and underwent a period of basic training from 22 September 1914 to 17 November 1914. He held the entry rank of Private during his time in the RMLI.

On 18 November 1914, he was transferred to the Portsmouth Battalion RMLI within the RND, and would spend most of his time with them. *

His service record tells us that he disembarked at Gallipoli on 28 April 1915, and served with the battalion for the next few months in 1915.

The service record states that he was wounded on 13 July 1915. Register of wounded (ADM 104/146)  states he was wounded 13 July 1915, and mentions he was transferred to Giza hospital on 16 July 1915.   

The service record states that his last day in the theatre of war was 23 July 1915, so the next day must have been when he embarked a hospital ship to return to Britain. Register of wounded (ADM 104/146) advises that he was admitted to Queen Mary's Royal Naval Hospital Southend on 25 September 1915.

It appears that he was in the hospital until 24 October 1915, when he appears to have been sent to Portsmouth to convalesce. On 22 November 1915 he was medically discharged, according to the service record. **

He was issued Silver War Badge RN561 by the Admiralty on 16 October 1916

[arantxa]

That is so so interesting thank you so much 

Please excuse my ignorance in the next question ( i have read through your links ) I have heard of Howe,Drake etc and they have there own badges and should titles ..but are they distinctively separate from other RND.....Why are these ones so spoken about ...I presume RND are any who are land fighters of the Navy 

I apologise if i haven't grasped something you have already sent me 

 

 Matt

 

[Keith_history_buff]

On 05/03/2024 at 19:10, Keith_history_buff said:

Given that the search facility allows searches on three letter and four letter words, it should be possible to tap the wealth of information recorded on the forum. Given your longevity on the forum, I was surprised by the question, but I found its structure confusing too.

Some battalions of the Royal Naval Division were named after Admirals, and were comprised of ratings of the Royal Navy. The other battalions were composed of Royal Marines, and these Battalions were named after their GD, be it Portsmouth, or Chatham, or Plymouth, or Deal (I seem to recall).

Your question appears to be in relation to a particular individual, who was 'wounded 13th July 1915'. Can you provide their name, rank or rating, and their official number, please
i.e.
J56789 Able Seaman Jack Tar
PLY/12345 Corporal Roger Jolly

  

35 minutes ago, arantxa said:

That is so so interesting thank you so much 

Please excuse my ignorance in the next question ( i have read through your links ) I have heard of Howe,Drake etc and they have there own badges and should titles ..but are they distinctively separate from other RND.....Why are these ones so spoken about ...I presume RND are any who are land fighters of the Navy 

I apologise if i haven't grasped something you have already sent me 

 

 Matt

 

If I am of the opinion that I have provided an answer and/or links, I do reserve the right to not repeat myself. 

[Alan24]

56 minutes ago, arantxa said:

That is so so interesting thank you so much 

Please excuse my ignorance in the next question ( i have read through your links ) I have heard of Howe,Drake etc and they have there own badges and should titles ..but are they distinctively separate from other RND.....Why are these ones so spoken about ...I presume RND are any who are land fighters of the Navy 

I apologise if i haven't grasped something you have already sent me 

 

 Matt

 

It is worth reading this link on the Long Long Trail

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/63rd-royal-naval-division/

[Keith_history_buff]

Completely agree, so often it is the case that the articles on LLT clearly and quickly explain the subject.

[Keith_history_buff]

  

On 06/03/2024 at 15:10, horatio2 said:

Setting aside, for now, the medal query, perhaps the following will help explain the OP's "VICTORY (RM Brigade)" puzzle. 

VICTORY (RM Brigade) is an entry found in the ADM 159 RM ledger records. It invariably means the man has been drafted to an RMLI battalion of the RND. Sometimes the sub-division of the VICTORY pay office is recorded – usually VICTORY V or VICTORY VI.

[snip]

Despite the RM Brigade not longer existing, “VICTORY (RM Brigade)” remained in use in the ledgers as shorthand for a draft to the RND. Ledger entries of later RMLI enlistments, for drafts to the RND in the BEF (1916-18), are more likely to be battalion specific but the VICTORY (RM Brigade) notation was in more or less continued use.

Image courtesy FindMyPast

  

1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said:

On 18 November 1914, he was transferred to the Portsmouth Battalion RMLI within the RND, and would spend most of his time with them. *

It appears that he was in the hospital until 24 October 1915, when he appears to have been sent to Portsmouth to convalesce. On 22 November 1915 he was medically discharged, according to the service record. **

When looking at a sailor's statement of service, it is sometimes the case that there is the name of an Accounting Base and a constituent element is recorded in brackets. One example mentioned on the forum is that of Ordinary Seaman Thomas Henry Cullen, who died at the Battle of Jutland. His statement of service has "Hecla (Ardent)" from Sep 1915 to 1 June 1916.

The definitive answer as to what this means, is provided by the following lucid explanation from Hortio2:

'HMS HECLA was the Depot Ship for the 4th Destroyer Flotilla at Scapa Flow, HECLA was the parent ship to ARDENT (who was a 'tender' to HECLA) and handled all pay and admin business.' 

The clerk has omitted the brackets on Hayward's record, but as per the record keeping following the Naval Discipline Act rules, HMS Victory would be an Accounting Base for the Royal Marine component of the Royal Naval Division.

[Keith_history_buff]

From a legal and accounting perspective, he was borne on the books of Portsmouth,  24 October 1915 to 22 November 1915. He may have been in a location other than the RMLI Portsmouth barracks at Forton Road Gosport.

[arantxa]

Thank you...I now grasp how the RMLI and The RND were intertwined..i hadnt realized this before ...now when im looking at medals i have a much better understanding ....

Thank you both of you 

And for explaining about the bracket

[arantxa]

HELLES - Major-General Granville Egerton, Headquarters, 52nd Division - "I contend that the Battle of July 12-13th was due to a complete want of a true appreciation of the situation. If the conception of the battle was wrong the tactics of the action were far worse. The division of the attack of two Brigades on a narrow front into two phases, no less than 9 hours apart, was positively wicked."

Photograph: Major-General Granville Egerton commanding the 52nd Division back in his prime as a young Second Lieutenant before joining the 72nd Regiment of Foot at Kabul, 1879. He took part in the famous march from Kabul to Kandahar where the British defeated the Afghan army under the command of Ayub Khan in 1880. Egerton was severely wounded at Kandahar, but recovered to resume his military career which extended beyond the Great War. He died in 1951. A fascinating man and although he may have been thought of as old and past it by young Alfred Chater (as an old man in need of his nap when Chater met him in our quote selected for 12 July) but Egerton's assessment of the planning for the Battle of 12-13th July was cogent and damming of the failings of Hamilton and Hunter-Weston.

"It seems to me that the fighting of this battle was premature and at the actual moment worse than unnecessary - I submit that it was cruel and wasteful. The troops on the Peninsula were tired and worn out; there were only two Infantry Brigades, the 155th and the 157th, that had not been seriously engaged. It was well known to the higher command that large reinforcements were arriving from England and a grand attack was to be made at Suvla. Was it not therefore obvious that the exhausted garrison at Helles should be given a fortnight's respite and that the fresh attacks from that position should synchronise with those at Suvla and Anzac? I contend that the Battle of July 12-13th was due to a complete want of a true appreciation of the situation. If the conception of the battle was wrong the tactics of the action were far worse. The division of the attack of two Brigades on a narrow front into two phases, no less than 9 hours apart, was positively wicked."

[Keith_history_buff]

A quick search throws up the following results,

https://www.greatwarforum.org/search/?&q=Portsmouth Gallipoli&type=forums_topic&page=2&quick=1&nodes=206&search_and_or=and&sortby=relevancy

of which 3 in particular looked to be of interest, regarding the Royal Marines of the Portsmouth Battalion of the RND

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/235578-events-of-13th-july-1915-enquiry/#comment-2355601

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/220363-gallipoli-trench-map-enquiry/#comment-2209137

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/81198-after-gallipoli/#comment-752095

I think there is a wealth of information out there to keep you busy for hours.

[arantxa]

I think so 

  Have a good weekend

 

   M

 

[arantxa]

I have just dig  out this a big pile of letters that I had never gone through to Noel Ward King RND engineer and now I understand it a bit more they are interesting cos he’s writing to his Father an ex soldier and describing his actions in great detail 

[horatio2]

That looks like a very interesting collection.

As this topic is now titled "RMLI", it is worth noting that Noel King was not in the RMLI but served in the Royal Naval Division Engineers (RNDE), as a Sapper, Royal Marines (RM), later transferring to the Royal Engineers in the BEF.

Edited 9 March by horatio2