Is this Prussian?

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, marcyG said:

Or maybe not earlier since the middle man has the same uniform (two bars on the collar). But no one in a dark uniform in this one.  

The earlier photo (picture 2) shows a more formal, coloured tunic from pre WW1.

The next photo (picture 3) shows a wartime waffenrock in field grey, with white collar ‘litzen’.

In the final photo (picture 4) the uniforms and puttees (leg wrappings) indicate a wartime family gathering, probably with the brothers on leave (furlough).

If you are interested in studying uniforms this is where I go to, but it can become complex:

https://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/waffenrock.htm

Take note in particular of the different cuff designs and the ‘litzen’ bars you noticed positioned on the collar.  It’s notable that the Wurttembergers had favoured a double breasted tunic (similar to the railwayman photo) until the late 1870s, when they adopted the Prussian style.

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

This was taken during the war. The soldier on the right sports an EKII and he was part of a machine-gun unit with a special sharp shooter badge handed out only after successful training. First issued for Württemberg troops after 15.02.1916, so you can date the photo in the latter half of the war.

GreyC

[marcyG]

2 minutes ago, GreyC said:

This was taken during the war. The soldier on the right sports an EKII and he was part of a machine-gun unit with a special sharp shooter badge handed out only after successful training. First issued for Württemberg troops after 15.02.1916, so you can date the photo in the latter half of the war.

GreyC

What is EKII?

[GreyC]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The earlier photo (picture 2) shows a more formal, coloured tunic from pre WW1.  

Basically correct (Bunter Rock) was worn before WW1, however also during the war, mainly on German soil, though.

GreyC

1 minute ago, marcyG said:

What is EKII

Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse in the button hole.

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, GreyC said:

Basically correct (Bunter Rock) was worn before WW1, however also during the war, mainly on German soil, though.

GreyC

Yes I imagine for more formal, and ceremonial occasions. 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, marcyG said:

What is EKII?

The very famous Iron Cross Class 2, Marcy.  Worn informally via the ribbon on its own in the button hole fastening of the front.

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

....and for want of up to date material. There was a new uniform issued for formal occasions during the war, however production soon ceased to concentrate on more pressing matters, they can be found though, especially as officers had them privately made, sometimes.

GreyC

Edited 5 March by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, GreyC said:

....and for want of up to date material. There was a new uniform issued for formal occasions during the war, however production soon ceased to cpncentrate on more pressing measures, they can be found though, especially as officers had them privately made, sometimes.

GreyC

Yes I imagine that even cloth had to be rationed eventually.

[GreyC]

4 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes I imagine that even cloth had to be rationed eventually.

Late in the war the Germans wore uniforms made from paper and Pickelhauben were made from felt when leather was no longer available.

GreyC

Edited 5 March by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Late in the war the Germans wore uniforms made from paper and Pickelhauben were made from felt when leather was no longer available.

GreyC

I’m amazed about the paper, but unsurprised by the sheer ingenuity!

Is this below the machine gunners arm badge on the man at right in the family group of three soldiers?

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

s this below the machine gunners arm badge on the man at right in the group of three?

Yup.

And here a comparison on one photo between leather and felt Pickelhaube:

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Yup.

And here a comparison on one photo between leather and felt Pickelhaube:

 

Very interesting.  Perhaps two brothers again.

Our inquisitor seems to have disappeared.

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Too much input

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, GreyC said:

Too much input

GreyC

Well hopefully she was content with the answers to her questions. 👍

[GreyC]

I am sure she was/is.

GreyC

[marcyG]

*** I had to go to work! I'm so grateful for all your help and looking forward to sharing what you've told me with my relatives!  I know where to come if I have more questions!

Just now, marcyG said:

*** I had to go to work! I'm so grateful for all your help and looking forward to sharing what you've told me with my relatives!  I know where to come if I have more questions!

I knew the right corner of the internet would have the answers I was looking for!

[GreyC]

Glad to be of help and I am sure all others, too!

GreyC

[marcyG]

On 05/03/2024 at 04:10, GreyC said:

@GreyC@FROGSMILE

Could you help me identify which of these awards are which?  Is the Centenarmedaille the slightly larger medallion in the middle? I circled it in red here. And which things indicate the service in the war against France in 1870/1871?

 

On 05/03/2024 at 04:10, GreyC said:

The original photo was taken after 1897 (he wears the Centenarmedaille issued that year) and he was in the Württemberg army as he wears the Württemberger Landwehrdienstauszeichnung (with the letter K on it) (=long service medal). As soldier he participated in the war against France in 1870/71 (Kriegsdenkmünze).

@FROGSMILE

 

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, marcyG said:

 

 

Forum member @GreyC is the right person to assist with those details Marcy.

[marcyG]

@GreyCThe small girl in this original photo was born in fall 1915 and looks to be at least 2 years old, so that corroborates your time line.  What can you tell me about the differences in these three uniformed men?  The one in the middle has a small ribbon or badge on his chest.  His cap is also different than that of the other two and he's the only one with the litzen.  I can't be sure it's not a glare, but the hats of the outer two may be different from each other. 

[GreyC]

I am on the move away from my books, but I do think that the one in the middle looks like a soldier of the Garde-Train (Garde-supply unit) the other two are infantry. There is a remote chance, that the soldier in the middle wears a so called mützenverdeckband  (to block the mützenband from view) which was grey instead of the Train colour light blue. The caps differ but that doesn´t say much with regard to further specifications (Feldmütze mit Schirm and Feldmütze, also called Krätzchen).

GreyC

[marcyG]

On 05/03/2024 at 05:29, FROGSMILE said:

He looks like a Landser/Schutzen to me, a soldier.  The ‘Brandenberg’ cuffs of his tunic will help identify his allegiance and origin.  I think that his collar and cuffs are made from velvet, which is probably significant too.

@GreyC

Okay so the Schutzen in the dark uniform which is pre-war, in a Württembergische Infantrie-Regimenter (probably Ulm since they did live near there) is also seen in the last photo during the war in a tan uniform.  So dumb question from a non-history buff, did the local Wurttembergische IR dissolve or absorbed into a national army once the war started? Are the tan war time uniforms that of the national uniform instead of a regional one? 

[FROGSMILE]

On 09/03/2024 at 14:19, marcyG said:

@GreyC

Okay so the Schutzen in the dark uniform which is pre-war, in a Württembergische Infantrie-Regimenter (probably Ulm since they did live near there) is also seen in the last photo during the war in a tan uniform.  So dumb question from a non-history buff, did the local Wurttembergische IR dissolve or absorbed into a national army once the war started? Are the tan war time uniforms that of the national uniform instead of a regional one? 

This link relates to the Ulm Regiment: https://wiki.genealogy.net/IR_127

And this to a variety of soldiers from Wurtemmbergische units: https://jenikirbyhistory.getarchive.net/topics/10+wurttembergisches+infanterie+regiment+nr+180

I’m unclear where you’ve got the idea of the colour ‘Tan’ as relevant from?

Although the allegiance to the original state (i.e. Wurtemmberg**) was still very strong and recognised in subtle features of the uniform, the regiments were overall part of a unified Imperial German army.  The unifying colour for the uniform in the trenches was feld grau (field grey), although there were slight variations between the exact shade because of the range of sources of manufacture.  See coloured photo below.

The images of Wurtemmbergischer soldiers below show the dark coloured formal uniform and the field grey worn in the field.

**apparently their continued to be a Royal head of Wurtemmberg between 1870 and 1918, at which point a people’s state was created, presumably in the fallout from the war.

 

Edited 10 March by FROGSMILE

[charlie2]

6 hours ago, GreyC said:

I am on the move away from my books, but I do think that the one in the middle looks like a soldier of the Garde-Train (Garde-supply unit) the other two are infantry. There is a remote chance, that the soldier in the middle wears a so called mützenverdeckband  (to block the mützenband from view) which was grey instead of the Train colour light blue. The caps differ but that doesn´t say much with regard to further specifications (Feldmütze mit Schirm and Feldmütze, also called Krätzchen).

GreyC

I disagree with the Garde-Train, on an earlier photo his shoulder straps clearly show a Cypher and the Garde-Train straps were plain. In the earlier photo the hat band appears to be red.

Charlie

[GreyC]

So we probably have a mützenverdeckband, as mentioned by me as a possibility.

GreyC