Is this Prussian?

[marcyG]

Hi! In going through some WW1 photos of ancestors in uniform, I found this of their father who died in 1910 so I presume this is Prussian but it doesn't match photos I've found online.  Could any one help me with confirming if this is Prussian or identifying any insignia or resources to help me in researching the uniform?  Thanks so much!

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, marcyG said:

Hi! In going through some WW1 photos of ancestors in uniform, I found this of their father who died in 1910 so I presume this is Prussian but it doesn't match photos I've found online.  Could any one help me with confirming if this is Prussian or identifying any insignia or resources to help me in researching the uniform?  Thanks so much!

The outspread wings on his cap has the look of old Reichsbahn (railways) insignia to me, but from which State, or Principality I do not know.  His overall appearance suggests 1890s into the early 1900s.  Perhaps @GreyC might be able to help.

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Hi,

the photo is of a railway-man and was even at the time of its production (1930s?) a reproduction off an original (late 1890s, 1900s) and a bit retouched. That´s why it is difficult to identify the ribbons correctly.

The original photo was taken after 1897 (he wears the Centenarmedaille issued that year) and he was in the Württemberg army as he wears the Württemberger Landwehrdienstauszeichnung (with the letter K on it) (=long service medal). As soldier he participated in the war against France in 1870/71 (Kriegsdenkmünze).

@FROGSMILE: In Germany there were only Länderbahnen until 1920 when the State-companies were united to form the Reichsbahn.

GreyC

Edited 5 March by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Hi,

the photo is of a railway-man and was even at the time of its production (1930s?) a reproduction off an original (late 1890s, 1900s) and a bit retouched. That´s why it is difficult to identify the ribbons correctly.

The original photo was taken after 1897 (he wears the Centenarmedaille issued that year) and he was in the Württemberg army as he wears the Württemberger Landwehrdienstauszeichnung. As soldier he participated in the war against France in 1870/71 (Kriegsdenkmünze).

@FROGSMILE: In Germany there were only Länderbahnen until 1920 when the State-companies were united to form the Reichsbahn.

GreyC

Thank you GreyC, I knew you would be the person to solve this 👍

[GreyC]

Pleasure.

The lower row of awards are probably those of Kriegervereine or regimental societies.

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Pleasure.

The lower row of awards are probably those of Kriegervereine or regimental societies.

GreyC

I wonder which Länderbahnen he was working for, perhaps  Württemberg if they had one.  The band around his cap and coat collar seem to match and suggest quite a distinctive vivid colour.  Perhaps bright - Prussian? - blue uniform with red collar, etc.

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

I would guess Württemberg, too.

Typically longserving Unteroffiziere in the army were eligible to be taken over by the state after their army time (custom, mail, railway, etc.), provided they pass the necessary exams. I think, this was the case here.

GreyC

Edited 5 March by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

11 minutes ago, GreyC said:

I would guess Württemberg, too.

Typically longserving Unteroffiziere in the army were eligible to be taken over by the state (custom, mail, railway, etc.) provided they pass the necessary exams. I think, this was the case here.

GreyC

 

Yes that makes sense, I’ve read about such things before.  I noticed that that area within Germany used a similar colour scheme for many of their state institutions such as this policeman, and the military officer.

Perhaps he was a zugfuhrer.

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

The 2nd photo seems to show a Prussian Landwehr-Offizier with rank of Major or higher?

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, GreyC said:

The 2nd photo seems to show a Prussian Landwehr-Offizier with rank of Major or higher?

GreyC

You’re probably right, I found him when doing a search for “Württemberger uniformen”.  Described as:

General im Dienstanzug für höhere Stäbe

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[AOK4]

Beware! A Zugführer is NOT a traindriver! A Zugführer is a commander of a Zug (a platoon commander), a traindriver would be a Lokomotivführer.

And a Trainfahrer has nothing to do with trains either but with the "Train" (military logistics).

These are common mistakes with German ranks.

[GreyC]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

General im Dienstanzug für höhere Stäbe

Should not be a General, but a Stabsoffizier (Major, Oberstleutnant, Oberst).

GreyC

8 minutes ago, AOK4 said:

Zugführer

In Austria´s kuk army "Zugsführer".

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Should not be a General, but a Stabsoffizier (Major, Oberstleutnant, Oberst).

GreyC

In Austria´s kuk army "Zugsführer".

GreyC

Thank you both for the clarification.  I was thinking by his (the subject’s) splendid appearance that he might well be the chief conductor of a train, rather than a driver.  I had stumbled upon a picture of a uniformed figure online described as zug fuhrer and thought he was wearing a railways uniform, but I must have been mistaken.  Anyway, Conductor is what I think he might be. 

[GreyC]

To add to my text w regard to Reichseisenbahner before 1920:

There was a Reichseisenbahn, however not for the whole Reich but for Elsass-Lothringen which was directly under the control of the Reich, not any of the States that together formed the Reich. Hence Reichseisenbahn.

GreyC

Edited 5 March by GreyC

[marcyG]

Wow!  You are all so helpful!  I spent hours googling uniforms before I found this forum and was disappointed at how little was available online.  I like your time windows b/c this man was born in 1843 and died in 1910 so 1890s seems to fit.  Is this a bad place to post a follow up photo if it's from 30 years later?  This fellow is a son of the first man.  I think it's taken in mid to late 19 teens.  Is this now an Imperial German uniform is could he also be working on trains? There are two more brothers with different uniforms.  All did live near Wurtetemberg if that helps.

[FROGSMILE]

39 minutes ago, marcyG said:

Wow!  You are all so helpful!  I spent hours googling uniforms before I found this forum and was disappointed at how little was available online.  I like your time windows b/c this man was born in 1843 and died in 1910 so 1890s seems to fit.  Is this a bad place to post a follow up photo if it's from 30 years later?  This fellow is a son of the first man.  I think it's taken in mid to late 19 teens.  Is this now an Imperial German uniform is could he also be working on trains? There are two more brothers with different uniforms.  All did live near Wurtetemberg if that helps.

He looks like a Landser/Schutzen to me, a soldier.  The ‘Brandenberg’ cuffs of his tunic will help identify his allegiance and origin.  I think that his collar and cuffs are made from velvet, which is probably significant too.

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[marcyG]

One more follow up from the first photo- clearly he's in his dress uniform with medals and ribbons, but was this typical to combine a train uniform with military medals? Would the photo have been for a special occasion?

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, marcyG said:

One more follow up from the first photo- clearly he's in his dress uniform with medals and ribbons, but was this typical to combine a train uniform with military medals? Would the photo have been for a special occasion?

As GreyC mentioned it was common for former soldiers to be employed by state institutions such as the railways and other public services.  He looks quite mature and I wonder if it might be a retirement photograph.  It was a big event to have a portrait photo taken at that time and I suspect that he dressed in his best railway’s uniform along with the decorations he’d earned throughout his life. 

[FROGSMILE]

Germany with its large land mass invested a great deal in its railways and took great pride in the efficiency of its services.  There was also quite a strong relationship with the military because it had been realised from wars in the decades before and after the creation of Bismarck’s Germany that the movement of Armies over long distances efficiently by rail could potentially win a war very quickly.  You can read about Wurttemberg’s railways here:

1.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Württemberg_State_Railways#:~:text=In the Kingdom of Württemberg,the Grand Duchy of Baden.

2.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_railways_in_Württemberg

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[marcyG]

Here is another brother, also I think late 19 teens.  Tried googling his collar emblems, they seemed distinctive, but I couldn't find anything. 

[GreyC]

Hi!

1.) Don´t have Württemberg railway employees photos in my collection as I concentrate on Prussia. Attached a photo of a Prussian Lokführer:

2) The 2nd photo is a picture of a private serving in a Württemberger Linien-Infantrie Regiment (army). There were six Württembergische Infantrie-Regimenter before the war, only IR 121, 126, 127 would match the shown uniform. IR 121 Ludwigsburg, IR 126 Straßburg, IR 127 Ulm. During the war a bunch of more Regimenter were formed.

3.) the last photo was taken during the war and shows a private or maybe a Gefreiter (hard to see) of (probably) Grenadier Regiment 123, also Württemberg.

4.) Additional information to 1st pic: The Landwehrdienstauszeichnung he wears was last awarded in 1891, so he earned it before that date.

The award 3rd row 1st in place was awarded for 25 year membership within the Württembergische Kriegerbund, first awarded in 1895. If he was drafted for the war against France and joined the Kriegerbund after the war it points (again) to late 1890s, early 1900s.

GreyC

Edited 5 March by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Hi!

1.) Don´t have Württemberg railway employees photos in my collection as I concentrate on Prussia. Attached a photo of a Prussian Lokführer:

2) The 2nd photo is a picture of a private serving in a Württemberger Linien-Infantrie Regiment (army). There were six Württembergische Infantrie-Regimenter before the war, only IR 121, 126, 127 would match the shown uniform. IR 121 Ludwigsburg, IR 126 Straßburg, IR 127 Ulm. During the war a bunch of more Regimenter were formed.

3.) the last photo was taken during the war and shows a private or maybe a Gefreiter (hard to see) of (probably) Grenadier Regiment 123, also Württemberg.

GreyC

Brilliant analysis GreyC.

As they are brothers, is it at all possible that they are in the same Wurttemberg regiment, but at different times, with the third photo being later and so a different pattern of uniform?

I ask because it wouldn’t surprise me if they joined their father’s old regiment. 

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

See 2-4 (later added by me)

Best,

GreyC

[marcyG]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Brilliant analysis GreyC.  As they are brothers is it at all possible that they are in the same Wurttemberg regiment, but at different times, with the third photo being later?  It wouldn’t surprise me if they joined their father’s old regiment. 

Here is what I think is earlier photo of all three in uniform. In this picture the caps are different and insignias, but I can't make them out. 

[marcyG]

1 minute ago, marcyG said:

Here is what I think is earlier photo of all three in uniform. In this picture the caps are different and insignias, but I can't make them out. 

Or maybe not earlier since the middle man has the same uniform (two bars on the collar). But no one in a dark uniform in this one.