James Hilary Spencer - Lancashire Fusiliers

[historyfan3]

That’s unusual, do you know what thread it was?

2 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

Interestingly enough, this is the second thread in a couple of weeks where an officer first entered a theatre of war in the Dardenelles, yet was deemed ineligible to receive the 1914-15 Star. In the other thread the officer concerned even had a disembarkation date, yet there was a notation on his medal index card that he was ineligible for the 1914-15 Star.

Was it by any chance RhubarbJaydes post?

[RussT]

I had a look at the 9th/Bn LF War Diary but it's quite poor and there is no roll call of officers during their embarkation/disembarkation which you sometimes find in War Diaries.

There is an account of their activities during the July/August period but only very occasionally is anyone named. There is a paragraph, copied below, which refers to certain officers although I'm uncertain as to the context "left unhurt". Hesling is a rather unusual name and there is just one officer with that name in the Lancashire Fusiliers Medal Rolls - Albert Hesling. His MIC (below) reveals he was not awarded the 1914/1915 so if this is the correct man mentioned in the War Diary perhaps he was left in Egypt (as per stated on his MIC) and for whatever reason he was not eligible - noting also there is no date of entry prior to 1916 which normally acts as a further marker for eligibility.

Could Spencer have fallen into this category (being one of the unnamed 2/Lts in the paragraph below)? Is there any primary evidence in his Service File that he actually landed as Sulva Bay - or is there just the Board Report saying that he did?

Russ

(Images courtesy of Ancestry)

 

 

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, historyfan3 said:

That’s unusual, do you know what thread it was?

Was it by any chance RhubarbJaydes post?

It was this thread from last month, regarding a Captain Hubert Berkeley who apparently disembarked at Gallipoli, yet was deemed ineligible to receive the 1914-15 Star.

 

[KizmeRD]

I haven’t been able to confidently establish that Capt Berkeley actually disembarked at Gallipoli, but I suspect not. I rather think that he was a military passenger on transport ship destined for Egypt that was required to call in at Mudros en route. His medal card states he is not entitled to the 1914/15 Star.

MB

[andrew_jackson]

2 hours ago, RussT said:

Is there any primary evidence in his Service File that he actually landed as Sulva Bay - or is there just the Board Report saying that he did?

Aside from the A. G. 4c. where the date on which he left his unit is given as '20th November 1915 (about)', I didn't see any other evidence.

Andrew

[RussT]

The Lancashire Fusiliers' Annual (1914-1915) provides a summary of the 9th Battalion's escapades in Gallipoli, In doing so it lists the 29 Officers who embarked for the Dardenelles (as mentioned above in reference to the War Diary) as well as a list of those Officers who then went on actually to embark for Sulva Bay.

Spencer in not on either list.

Regards

Russ

 

[Tawhiri]

11 hours ago, andrew_jackson said:

He went to Gallipoli as a second lieutenant with 9th Lancashire Fusiliers

I'm curious as to why his service file suggests he was with the 9th Battalion, when the September 1915 Army list has him with the 1st/2nd Battalion, having previously been recorded with the 3rd Battalion from his commissioning in August 1914 until August 1915. He then remains with the 1st/2nd Battalion for the duration of the war, until his death.

Edited 13 March by Tawhiri

[RussT]

The 1917 Annual also lists the LF Officers proceeding overseas from the 3rd Battalion - Spencer appears under 14/12/1917 (as per his MIC).

I believe these dates are the dates first sent overseas:

 

[RussT]

But then we have this in the 1914/1915 Annual where he is conducting a draft of 112 ORs from the 3rd Battalion to the 1st Battalion on 23/08/1915.

 

[Tawhiri]

Which is then consistent with his change in battalion between the August 1915 and September 1915 Army lists, as well as his assumed date of travel to the Mediterranean.

[andrew_jackson]

12 hours ago, Tawhiri said:

Which is then consistent with his change in battalion between the August 1915 and September 1915 Army lists, as well as his assumed date of travel to the Mediterranean.

So perhaps an error on the Medical Board report. The A. G. 4c. doesn't specify the battalion.

[historyfan3]

On 13/03/2024 at 21:10, RussT said:

The Lancashire Fusiliers' Annual (1914-1915) provides a summary of the 9th Battalion's escapades in Gallipoli, In doing so it lists the 29 Officers who embarked for the Dardenelles (as mentioned above in reference to the War Diary) as well as a list of those Officers who then went on actually to embark for Sulva Bay.

Spencer in not on either list.

Regards

Russ

 

This is very odd as he signed off a letter (in which he described a voyage to the Dardanelles travelling through places such as Malta) as “Dardanelles Expeditionary Force”. I wonder why he isn’t listed here.

[historyfan3]

On top of all this, I still am unsure what battle he was captured in when he was in France, can anyone help me out here?

[andrew_jackson]

A further piece of evidence in favour of the 9th Battalion - his signature to a letter published in the Haslingden Gazette of 25th September 1915

[andrew_jackson]

16 hours ago, historyfan3 said:

On top of all this, I still am unsure what battle he was captured in when he was in France, can anyone help me out here?

You know the date on which he was captured from the first image that you posted. At that time he was certainly with 1st Lancashire Fusiliers. You can download the battalion war diary for no charge from the National Archives website, reference is WO 95/2300. You will need to register to get the free download.  

[TullochArd]

On 13/03/2024 at 21:41, RussT said:

But then we have this in the 1914/1915 Annual where he is conducting a draft of 112 ORs from the 3rd Battalion to the 1st Battalion on 23/08/1915.

 

RussT comes up with a critical observation here. 

At this time he is recorded as a Draft Conducting Officer (DCO) and therefore not on strength of a unit.  DCO's were 'Home Establishment' and therefore not on the books of any unit 'in the field'. This meant that they qualified for a BWM for leaving the shores of the UK but not for any campaign stars or BVM - although in his case a BVM was rightly earned later by service in 1917.   

I suspect RussT has nailed the reason for no 14/15 Star.

That brings us to the oft repeated contradictory evidence as similarly recorded by his school (King's School, Worcester) "In 1915, he took part in the landing at Suvla Bay in Gallipoli and was partially maimed at the Peninsula.  After five months in the Blue Sister’s Hospital at Malta and afterwards at Fazakerly Hospital he returned home to duty as Instructor at Hull, where he became engaged. About the same time he paid a long visit to the School House and delivered an excellent lecture to the O.T.C. on trench warfare, based on his experiences in Gallipoli." 

I'm afraid I see no evidence of "maimed on the Peninsula" or "trench warfare, based on his experiences in Gallipoli" in the latest evidence collated above and must offer that this conclusion may simply be a best assumption at the time using the limited resources available to the author.

[RussT]

That is an interesting aspect that I have not come across or considered before.

Is the implication then that a DCO returns to the UK after he has delivered his draft (and thereby does not qualify for certain campaign medals)?

I was looking through the 1/Bn LF War Diary some weeks ago and I did spot that the arrival of drafts were sometimes mentioned but the one by Spencer does not appear to be explicitly recorded (a nameless draft of 150 is recorded as arriving on 25/09/1915).

Note that the 1/Bn LF were back on Mudros for a break between 10th and 22nd September 1915 when Spencer's draft might well have arrived (having departed the UK on 23/08/1915).

On that same List of drafts departing 3/Bn LF to the 1st Bn LF there is a draft of 100 ORs departing 29/06/1915 being conducted by a Captain C L Brierley. He and his draft (of 99 - so one man must have been jettisoned along the way) are recorded in the 1st LF War Diary as arriving a few weeks later on 17/07/1915 (see image, courtesy of Ancestry). So it seems this particular DCO remained with the Battalion? However it looks like he had already earned a 1914 Star (with the 2nd/Bn LF in France) and who is, I believe, Major Charles Leonard Brierley recorded as DoW (in the UK) on 16/09/1915 (commemorated as being 2/Bn LF) having been wounded with the 1/Bn LF on 21/08/1915 at Sulva Bay.

So I post this information to aid the general discussion on this interesting aspect as it is not immediately obvious to me, without other evidence (or lack of it), which Officers on the List were DCOs who ended up being part of the draft themselves as Officer replacements and those who came back (thus not qualifying for campaign medals).

Russ

 

 

[TullochArd]

2 hours ago, RussT said:

Is the implication then that a DCO returns to the UK after he has delivered his draft (and thereby does not qualify for certain campaign medals)?

I believe so. 

DCO was a temporary appointment in most cases.  More stable exceptions seem to be the very old and bold.  Full time DCOs with a single BWM are hard to find as, as the War progressed, temporary DCOs would be re-employed in other roles if found fit to do so. In the case here the BWM seems to have been earned as a DCO but "re-earned" and issued as a BWM and BVM for service later in the War. The contemporary diary entries and geography all fit this scenario.  The confusion here seems to arise from a later assumption that JHS's service must have been on a fighting unit's strength. 

However, here I must introduce potentially contradictory evidence into the discussion.  WO 329/2956 is Draft Conducting Officers: medal rolls. OFF/122 for the 1914-15 Star.  It is available on Ancestry and I cannot access that to confirm or deny if it is relevant or not.  It's mere existence suggests there may have been exceptions. All I can glean from the periphery is that MSI forwarded a Roll of all DCOs dated 2 Oct 1919......I suspect these DCOs were the "official" ones rather than the temporary ones.

[historyfan3]

17 hours ago, andrew_jackson said:

You know the date on which he was captured from the first image that you posted. At that time he was certainly with 1st Lancashire Fusiliers. You can download the battalion war diary for no charge from the National Archives website, reference is WO 95/2300. You will need to register to get the free download.  

Hi, How do I search by reference number? Newbie here. 

[Michelle Young]

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4555451
 

Looks like he was captured 14/04/18 at Neuve Église looking at your original document