historyfan3 Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March Hi, I am doing some research on soldiers from WW1 and I have chosen James Hilary Spencer (JH) of Haslingden Lancashire. I was wondering if anyone had any information on war medals, honours or other connections. As well as this, I’m wondering if anyone has any stories or knows any relatives of James Hilary. Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 4 March Admin Share Posted 4 March Do you have his Service Number to share with us? Regards Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyfan3 Posted 4 March Author Share Posted 4 March Hi, I can’t find the service number anywhere unless I’m not looking in the right places, but I have the links to the websites I’ve been using so far. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/4204830 https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/story/114781 https://astreetnearyou.org/person/278672/Captain-James-Hilary-L.-Spencer Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 4 March Admin Share Posted 4 March You now tell us he was a Captain. Officers did not have Service Numbers. Do you have any other information about him you want to share before members go off and dig out all sorts of information that you might already have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyfan3 Posted 4 March Author Share Posted 4 March Yes sorry, I am fairly new to WW1 and this is my first research. I have a lot of images that I found online which I will attach. I have information about his school days as well. He went from Brasenose College, Oxford and joined the Lancashire Fusiliers. He later became a captain after an injury at Suvla Bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) 2 hours ago, historyfan3 said: He later became a captain after an injury at Suvla Bay. I'd be questioning the story that he was injured at Suvla Bay, as his medal index card shows he first entered a theatre of war on 14 December 1917 in France. If he had been at Suvla Bay he would have been eligible for the 1914-15 Star and there is no mention of that on the card. He was first commissioned as a Second Lieutenant with the 3rd Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers on 15 August 1914, so there is no chance that he was at Suvla Bay as an enlisted man, with a possible separate entry for a 1914-15 Star. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28879/page/6698 Image sourced from Ancestry: Edited 4 March by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lees Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March There are so many inconsistencies with this account. He is buried at Lille, which is in France, over 270 miles from Limburg POW camp. And, looking at the CWGC records for his burial, he is in his original burial place. Those buried near him.were buried chronologically, suggesting a medical facility. At this time, Lille was under German occupation so he probably died of wounds whilst in their care. Does the War Diary mention his capture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) Interestingly, a look on the British Newspaper Archives produces an article from the Haslingden Gazette of Saturday, 25 September 1915, which refers to a letter written by a J Hilary Spencer, the son of the vicar of St James, which does suggest that he was on a troopship travelling to the Mediterranean at the time. ... Mr. J. HILARY SPENCER. Son of the Vicar of S. James'. Interesting Letters To His Parents. Sunda:. , 23, 1915. My deer M—, I wonder how you all are at honie? We bare had an uneventful voyage SD Jar, and are now well into the Moinerruman. We have not stopped ... The question now is how did he get to the Mediterranean without earning a 1914-15 Star, unless he never actually physically entered a theatre of war, and was injured before he actually got there. There is a further article, a month later on Saturday, 23 October 1915, from the Accrington Observer and Times that states he was serving with the Lancashire Fusiliers, but the search results don't say where. ... be engaged on munitions. The eldest son, Corporal Edmund Spencer, is with the Artillery in France, Lieutenant George Spencer js in the navy, and the youngest son, TLjeutenant James Hilary Spencer, is an officer in the Lancashire Fusiliers, ... Subsequent articles from 1918 reporting his death repeat much of the obituary written by the King's Headmaster, which states he was injured at Suvla Bay. Edited to add that there is a further report from the Accrington Observer and Times of Saturday, 27 May 1916, that again implies service in the Dardanelles. ... Gastall is still progressing towards recovery though in ease like is inevitably slow The many friendYof Lieut Hilary Spencer youngest Rev A Spencer MA Vicar St James’s Accrington will be glad hear that his experiences in the Dar danelles this popular officer ... Edited 4 March by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 4 March Admin Share Posted 4 March 53 minutes ago, Ken Lees said: At this time, Lille was under German occupation so he probably died of wounds whilst in their care. His BWM/VM confirms he died of wounds as a PoW and his SDGW (ODGW) entry records that he died of wounds in German hands. Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March ...... photo in uniform along with family details here: Haslingden War Heroes: Spencer, James Hilary - Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 4 March Admin Share Posted 4 March I think this is his Service File which can either be viewed at TNA or a copy can be requested. Captain James Hilary SPENCER. The Lancashire Fusiliers. | The National Archives Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 4 March Admin Share Posted 4 March Officers had to apply for their Medals. What happened if they were dead? Did the NoK have to apply? If so, did the NoK have to apply separately for the Star? Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March LG 25 August 1914 Issue: 28879 Page: 6698 has "The undermentioned ex-cadet of the Officers Training Corps, to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 15th August, 1914" ....... "James Hilary Spencer, 3rd Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers." and LG 10 August 1915 Issue: 29258 Page: 7898 has "The Lancashire Fusiliers, Second Lieutenant James Hilary Spencer, from 3rd Battalion, to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 15th Feb 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin RussT Posted 4 March Admin Share Posted 4 March I can't find him on any 1914-1915 Star Lancashire Fusilier Medal Roll - my understanding is that these Rolls compiled the Roll of Officers who were eligible for the Medal so it is independent of whether the Medal was actually applied for by his NoK. If he were on the Roll and his Medal wasn't applied for then there would be no MIC. But not being on the Medal Roll indicates he was not eligible because he was not overseas prior to 1916. He is not on the list of Officers (26-off) for the 1st Battalion LF Embarking from England in March 1915 as per the 1/LF War Diary. I have flicked through the whole of the 1/LF War Diary during their time in Egypt & Gallipoli but I can't see him mentioned - although it looks to me that Officers are not always rigorously recorded. It will be the job of the OP, if truly interested, to go through the 1/LF War Diary carefully, to confirm or otherwise whether he is mentioned or not during this period. The 1/LF War Diary is on Ancestry or it can be viewed at TNA. I have assumed, from the biographical details provided by the OP although it is not explicitly stated, that he was with the 1/LF in the search described above. It should be noted however that the 1/5th, 1/6th, 1/7th and 1/8th Battalions of the LF (Lancashire Fusiliers Brigade in the East Lancashire Division) were also in Gallipoli so the OP should go through those War Diaries too during the relevant period just in case he was actually with one of those LF Battalions. Finally, here he is mentioned in the 1/LF War Diary being reported missing in April 1918. Russ (Image courtesy Ancestry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) The January 1916 Monthly Army List has him serving with the 1st and 2nd Battalions of the Lancashire Fusiliers, with a date of 15 February 1915 beside his name, which is consistent with the Gazette Entry that TullochArd found. There is also a (3) in front of his name, so presumably this is related to his commissioning originally with the 3rd Battalion in August 1914 before being seconded/transferred to the 1st Battalion. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/122405792 In the February 1915 list, he is still with the 3rd Battalion. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/106357737 Edited 4 March by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyfan3 Posted 4 March Author Share Posted 4 March 5 hours ago, Tawhiri said: I'd be questioning the story that he was injured at Suvla Bay, as his medal index card shows he first entered a theatre of war on 14 December 1917 in France. If he had been at Suvla Bay he would have been eligible for the 1914-15 Star and there is no mention of that on the card. He was first commissioned as a Second Lieutenant with the 3rd Battalion of the Lancashire Fusiliers on 15 August 1914, so there is no chance that he was at Suvla Bay as an enlisted man, with a possible separate entry for a 1914-15 Star. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28879/page/6698 Image sourced from Ancestry: Wow thank you I did not properly check the credibility of the sources so thank you for making my job a lot easier in the long run 3 hours ago, TullochArd said: ...... photo in uniform along with family details here: Haslingden War Heroes: Spencer, James Hilary - Captain Thank you! I didn’t expect to get this level of help when posting here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyfan3 Posted 4 March Author Share Posted 4 March 49 minutes ago, RussT said: I can't find him on any 1914-1915 Star Lancashire Fusilier Medal Roll - my understanding is that these Rolls compiled the Roll of Officers who were eligible for the Medal so it is independent of whether the Medal was actually applied for by his NoK. If he were on the Roll and his Medal wasn't applied for then there would be no MIC. But not being on the Medal Roll indicates he was not eligible because he was not overseas prior to 1916. He is not on the list of Officers (26-off) for the 1st Battalion LF Embarking from England in March 1915 as per the 1/LF War Diary. I have flicked through the whole of the 1/LF War Diary during their time in Egypt & Gallipoli but I can't see him mentioned - although it looks to me that Officers are not always rigorously recorded. It will be the job of the OP, if truly interested, to go through the 1/LF War Diary carefully, to confirm or otherwise whether he is mentioned or not during this period. The 1/LF War Diary is on Ancestry or it can be viewed at TNA. I have assumed, from the biographical details provided by the OP although it is not explicitly stated, that he was with the 1/LF in the search described above. It should be noted however that the 1/5th, 1/6th, 1/7th and 1/8th Battalions of the LF (Lancashire Fusiliers Brigade in the East Lancashire Division) were also in Gallipoli so the OP should go through those War Diaries too during the relevant period just in case he was actually with one of those LF Battalions. Finally, here he is mentioned in the 1/LF War Diary being reported missing in April 1918. Russ (Image courtesy Ancestry) Oh ok, thank you for your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyfan3 Posted 4 March Author Share Posted 4 March 4 hours ago, Tawhiri said: Interestingly, a look on the British Newspaper Archives produces an article from the Haslingden Gazette of Saturday, 25 September 1915, which refers to a letter written by a J Hilary Spencer, the son of the vicar of St James, which does suggest that he was on a troopship travelling to the Mediterranean at the time. ... Mr. J. HILARY SPENCER. Son of the Vicar of S. James'. Interesting Letters To His Parents. Sunda:. , 23, 1915. My deer M—, I wonder how you all are at honie? We bare had an uneventful voyage SD Jar, and are now well into the Moinerruman. We have not stopped ... The question now is how did he get to the Mediterranean without earning a 1914-15 Star, unless he never actually physically entered a theatre of war, and was injured before he actually got there. There is a further article, a month later on Saturday, 23 October 1915, from the Accrington Observer and Times that states he was serving with the Lancashire Fusiliers, but the search results don't say where. ... be engaged on munitions. The eldest son, Corporal Edmund Spencer, is with the Artillery in France, Lieutenant George Spencer js in the navy, and the youngest son, TLjeutenant James Hilary Spencer, is an officer in the Lancashire Fusiliers, ... Subsequent articles from 1918 reporting his death repeat much of the obituary written by the King's Headmaster, which states he was injured at Suvla Bay. Edited to add that there is a further report from the Accrington Observer and Times of Saturday, 27 May 1916, that again implies service in the Dardanelles. ... Gastall is still progressing towards recovery though in ease like is inevitably slow The many friendYof Lieut Hilary Spencer youngest Rev A Spencer MA Vicar St James’s Accrington will be glad hear that his experiences in the Dar danelles this popular officer ... Woah, I have no clue how you find all this! But I am so appreciative! This gave me more motivation to go and do some more digging myself. It is interesting that a lot of different sources seem to conflict each other. I reckon some of them were written more recently and weren’t as confident in the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 4 March Share Posted 4 March (edited) He was still with the 3rd Battalion in the August 1915 Army List, a month later in September 1915 he was listed as serving with the 1st and 2nd Battalions, so his secondment/transfer had to have taken place sometime around then. This also fits with the newspaper mention of his letter written while travelling to the Mediterranean noted earlier, which was dated late September 1915. August 1915 - https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123034449 September 1915 - https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/123012573 I'd be having a close look at the War Diary of the 1st Battalion for late September 1915/early October 1915 to see if there is anything to indicate why he might not have arrived in the Dardanelles theatre of war, given everything points to him being on a troopship to the Mediterranean in this time frame. Was there a draft of reinforcements to the battalion at this time? Edited 5 March by Tawhiri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyfan3 Posted 11 March Author Share Posted 11 March Sorry, I’ve been ill for a while. I’m not quite following the mass of replies. I have got the gist that there seems to be a mix up who this man actually was. I am unsure what rank he had as I seem to find a variety of conflicting answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyfan3 Posted 11 March Author Share Posted 11 March Does anyone know if he received any honours or medals? I can’t find any records that he did and I don’t think he qualified for the 1914/15 star because I can’t see that he has anywhere. Furthermore, I am guessing he was injured before he landed at Suvla Bay. This suggests to me that he was injured around the peninsula area and therefore did not qualify for the star before he landed in France in 1917 as (possibly?) a captain or possibly second lieutenant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyfan3 Posted 11 March Author Share Posted 11 March Wow, using the newspaper archives I’ve found, Ive been able to find some really cool background information including his piano examination and information about his school. He also wrote a very long letter which was addressed from the Dardanelles Expeditionary Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_jackson Posted 13 March Share Posted 13 March I had a chance to look at James' service file while at Kew yesterday. He went to Gallipoli as a second lieutenant with 9th Lancashire Fusiliers. A Medical Board report of 5th June 1916 states "He went to Suvla Bay in Aug 1915, where he contracted dysentry, and was sent to hospital. In December 1915 he was sent to Malta, where he was found to have neuritis after a sore throat, and he was diagnosed to have had diphtheria. Soon after he got completely paralysed. Under treatment at Malta and Fazakerley paralysis largely disappeared. He cannot stand alone - He can walk with the help of two nurses." Curious that there's no record of a 1914-15 Star being awarded. historyfan3 - send me a message if you'd like some photos I took from the service file. Both James and his brother George are commemorated on the war memorial in Oak Hill Park, Accrington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historyfan3 Posted 13 March Author Share Posted 13 March Wow that’s so cool! Thank you for looking for me, it is very strange that he didn’t get awarded the 14/15 star. I would love the photos! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawhiri Posted 13 March Share Posted 13 March 2 hours ago, andrew_jackson said: Curious that there's no record of a 1914-15 Star being awarded. Interestingly enough, this is the second thread in a couple of weeks where an officer first entered a theatre of war in the Dardenelles, yet was deemed ineligible to receive the 1914-15 Star. In the other thread the officer concerned even had a disembarkation date, yet there was a notation on his medal index card that he was ineligible for the 1914-15 Star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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