Dallou Posted 8 March Author Share Posted 8 March WOW!!, thank you so.much for the information, I really appreciate it, I guess I have some reading to do. Which is his service number 1026 or 73937? Thank you Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March (edited) 1 hour ago, Dallou said: Hey Andy, the name I have is Walther Henry Montgomery, date of birth 24/08/1896, possible address around 1911 was 18 Auburn Street, Broadstone. Dublin Ireland. He also 7 bothers, so possible could be one of them names no sure as yet. I do know there was a William Montgomery possible year of birth 1885, apparently he was 13th Hussars, that's new information I just heard about. Thanks for your help Darrell Forum member, vaugh, has just provided you with key information based on years of research focused on the South Irish Horse including men with the name that you are seeking information about. Edited 9 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 9 March Author Share Posted 9 March @FROGSMILE yes I saw that, I really appreciate it, very informative, thank you. Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 9 March Author Share Posted 9 March (edited) @vaugh yes that is my great great grandfather was Edward and my great great grandmother was Sara, yes they did have quite a few kids, I do believe we are looking at the correct family. Thank you for your assistance. REgards Darrell Edited 9 March by Dallou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March Vaugh, So glad your here. Thanks for the reply, really useful. I too read the war diary concerning the draft replacements. The particular section seems to be referring to reinforcements to just two of the Troops within the Squadron. The other men may well have been allocated to the other Troops or HQ element. Unless of course the Squadron only deployed to France with two Troop sub units? Can I ask what you make of his second service number (73937). Was this purely the renumbering of the TF in 1917 and he got his new number along with everyone else? If so why did he not renumber when he changed Regiments? Or was the number change upon transfer to the 19th Hussars and thus a Hussars number? Finally was a transfer to the 19th Hussars something you had observed with others men? The War Diaries are not particularly detailed but the story of the Regiment as it moved subordination between higher HQ formations, became a composite cavalry unit and finally was converted to infantry presents a confused and busy picture. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugh Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March 7 hours ago, AndrewSid said: Vaugh, So glad your here. Thanks for the reply, really useful. I too read the war diary concerning the draft replacements. The particular section seems to be referring to reinforcements to just two of the Troops within the Squadron. The other men may well have been allocated to the other Troops or HQ element. Unless of course the Squadron only deployed to France with two Troop sub units? Can I ask what you make of his second service number (73937). Was this purely the renumbering of the TF in 1917 and he got his new number along with everyone else? If so why did he not renumber when he changed Regiments? Or was the number change upon transfer to the 19th Hussars and thus a Hussars number? Finally was a transfer to the 19th Hussars something you had observed with others men? The War Diaries are not particularly detailed but the story of the Regiment as it moved subordination between higher HQ formations, became a composite cavalry unit and finally was converted to infantry presents a confused and busy picture. Andy Hi Andy, Quote Was this purely the renumbering of the TF in 1917 and he got his new number along with everyone else? Indeed it was, I'd change the 'TF' to 'Army' and Walter was a 'Special Reserve' member. The SIH were renumbered with the Corps of Hussars in the number range 73000-74199. The number 74199 was allocated to John O'Hara SIH 1882, there are more SIH men with much higher numbers but the 73 thousand block was allocated to the SIH, their sister unit the NIH were allocated the 71 thousand block, at least three numbers from this block were given to SIH men. Walter was allocated his 73 thousand number in 1917 and although he was transferred to the 19th Hussars he retained his 73937 number because he still came under the Corps of Hussars umbrella. Quote Finally was a transfer to the 19th Hussars something you had observed with others men? I have observed this for four other men, though in fairness several other Hussar regiments also saw transfers. The 3rd, 4th, 10th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 18th and 19th Hussars recipients of transfers. I hope this helps, as you say it's a confused and busy picture but that's the Irish for you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugh Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March 21 hours ago, Dallou said: WOW!!, thank you so.much for the information, I really appreciate it, I guess I have some reading to do. Which is his service number 1026 or 73937? Thank you Darrell His service number is in fact both, 1026 before September 1917 and 73937 afterwards. the SIH were administered by the Corps of Hussars and so too were the 19th Hussars, so his number remained the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 9 March Author Share Posted 9 March 5 minutes ago, vaugh said: His service number is in fact both, 1026 before September 1917 and 73937 afterwards. the SIH were administered by the Corps of Hussars and so too were the 19th Hussars, so his number remained the same. Ok oh thank you, so on his medals 73937 would have been used I assume, and for regiment would it have been 19 Hussars or SIH? It is so confusing, I also served in the Brtish army an my service number would have been transfered with me if I changed to a totally different regiment, but I guess things were different back then. Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March (edited) I would have though his medals would be SIH as that was the unit he deployed to France with. The number would have been 73937 I think. WW1 saw men collect service numbers quite readily. My great uncle had 5. I’ve seen men with eight. Men with one number tended to be ones killed quickly. Andy Edited 9 March by AndrewSid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugh Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March 21 hours ago, Dallou said: Hey Andy, the name I have is Walther Henry Montgomery, date of birth 24/08/1896, possible address around 1911 was 18 Auburn Street, Broadstone. Dublin Ireland. He also 7 bothers, so possible could be one of them names no sure as yet. I do know there was a William Montgomery possible year of birth 1885, apparently he was 13th Hussars, that's new information I just heard about. Thanks for your help Darrell Hi Darrell, You will see from my earlier post, that I've corrected the BW/Vic medal roll list and I've added a screen shot of the original roll. There is a William Montgomery 1141 Pte 11th Hussars, also noted as 15th Hussars and 2nd Life Guards. There is an outside chance this is the man standing in your photo, though as a word of caution, we may well never know so don't take this as proof the photo shows the two brothers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March Vaugh, Thankyou for untangling that for me. I had suspected after typing that the Cavalry were one big happy administrative family and that he might not have changed numbers on posting to the 19th. I take it dating his transfer to the 19th is unlikely? Being in England I dont have access to the Irish newspapers archives. Did they record SIH wounded? Finding a wording report would be useful. Thanks again Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugh Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March 12 minutes ago, Dallou said: Ok oh thank you, so on his medals 73937 would have been used I assume, and for regiment would it have been 19 Hussars or SIH? It is so confusing, I also served in the Brtish army an my service number would have been transfered with me if I changed to a totally different regiment, but I guess things were different back then. Darrell Hi Darrell, His medal index card (MIC) posted earlier clearly shows his medals were impressed as SIH and the number used would be 1026. You will see the asterix on the cars indicating the BW/Vic medals detailed on the CY/116B roll (this is the photo I've included above in my earlier post) are to be impressed S.Ir.H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 9 March Author Share Posted 9 March He did have an older brother called William, who did appre tky serve in the Hussars so maybe it might be him, like you said we may never know, thank you so much Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugh Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March 2 minutes ago, AndrewSid said: I take it dating his transfer to the 19th is unlikely? Hi, Quite correct, a movable feast, so to speak... Quote Being in England Me too!! Quote Did they record SIH wounded? Indeed they did, I've yet to find him, but I live in hope... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugh Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March (edited) 14 minutes ago, Dallou said: He did have an older brother called William, who did appre tky serve in the Hussars so maybe it might be him, like you said we may never know, thank you so much Darrell It's a pleasure to help. There are two Pension Ledger cards for the two brothers, sadly no family information which is pretty grim, William's card shows 2nd Life Guards as a unit as well as 'Hussars' no mention of which Hussar unit and the 2nd Life Guards is bereft of a number. I've attached a composite of the originals which can be found on Fold3 part of the Ancestry group of companies. The PA reference 23/03/71 was at the bottom of Walter's card and may well refer to his death.. Edited 9 March by vaugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 9 March Author Share Posted 9 March It's a pitty the story was not passed down, I guess he didn't talk much about it, and my grand mother never mentioned that her dad served, my father's generation has no clue. Noone even knows he was in the military far less what happened to his medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugh Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March 4 minutes ago, Dallou said: It's a pitty the story was not passed down, I guess he didn't talk much about it, and my grand mother never mentioned that her dad served, my father's generation has no clue. Noone even knows he was in the military far less what happened to his medals. Sadly, an all to common story. At least you have the photograph and a few more details about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewSid Posted 9 March Share Posted 9 March (edited) 42 minutes ago, vaugh said: deed they did, I've yet to find him, but I live in hope... Im wondering if he was wounded April to June 1917 when casualty lists were not published as they made the swap from the Times to the HMSO. Regional papers carried lists in the interim, albeit not complete ones. Southern Irish papers may be a good source. Of course he could also be lost in a badly scanned document. Darrell - if you really want to chase this further id suggest looking at southern Irish archive papers for the time. They will certainly give context for mobilisation in 1914. Andy Edited 9 March by AndrewSid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 9 March Author Share Posted 9 March 15 minutes ago, vaugh said: Sadly, an all to common story. At least you have the photograph and a few more details about it. 17 minutes ago, AndrewSid said: Im wondering if he was wounded April to June 1917 when casualty lists were not published as they made the swap from the Times to the HMSO. Regional papers carried lists in the interim, albeit not complete ones. Southern Irish papers may be a good source. Of course he could also be lost in a badly scanned document. Darrell - if you really want to chase this further id suggest looking at southern Irish archive papers for the time. They will certainly give context for mobilisation in 1914. Andy Hi Andy, That could be it, yes I woukd like to get as much information as I can I will have a look at the irish paper hopefully I can find something in there Thank you Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 10 March Author Share Posted 10 March On 08/03/2024 at 15:35, vaugh said: Hi, Thanks to Frogsmile for the heads up. I have very little information on Walter Henry Montgomery number 1026 and 73937 SIH and later 19th Hussars. Enlisted most likely on the 26th August 1914, trained and went overseas to France on the 20th January 1915 with nineteen other men of the SIH. Who he was with or where he actually went is not known. The war diary for that period can be found in WO95/2380, partially transcribed here: http://southirishhorse.com/documents/b_sqn_wardiaries2.htm He could have been one of the fourteen men transferred from base to the squadron, where the other six went is anyone's guess. As you note the date of birth of the 24th August 1896, there is one such birth in the register from Tullymore Kings County, now renamed Offaly. This Walter Henry Montgomery was born in Crow Street, Tullymore with his parents given as Edward Montgomery and Sara McClalland, Edward is shown as a warder at HM prison Tullymore. This couple were married in Dublin on the 17th February 1881 in St Mary's Church Dublin, Edward is recorded as a prison warder and his address is Grange Gorman Prison. Edwards father John is shown as a Sub constable of constabulary and his wife's father, William was a Private Royal Irish Constabulary. They had quite a large family, possibly nine children. Do you think this is your Great grandfather's family? Here are the Montgomery men from the Corps of Hussars medal rolls, first the 1914-15 Star, followed by the British War and Victory medal roll. 1914-1915 Star Corps of Hussars Piece 2510: 1983. Pte A/Corpl MONTGOMERY. David R. 0100 ca. 4.15(3) Diamb 4.6.19 11891. Pte MONTGOMERY. Harold. 10th Hrs. 10.10.15 (1) Died. 9.5.17 1239. Pte MONTGOMERY. Sidney. N.I.H. 2.0.15 (1) Class. Z. 23.1.19 1026. Pte MONTGOMERY, Walter S.I.H. 20.1.15 (1) Diamnd. 2.5.19 1052. Pte MONTGOMERY. Walter. N. Bucks Hrs 21.4.15 (3) Dis 392.16. 13.10.17 656. Sergt. MONTGOMERY, William.J. S.Notts Hrs 26.4.15 (3) K in A. 12.9.15 British War Medal and Victory Medal Corps of Hussars Piece 0013: 235094 A/Cpl MONTGOMERY David R. Glos Hrs 1983 A/Cpl, SGT Glos Hrs 11881 Pte MONTGOMERY Harold 10th Hrs 10th Hrs. 11881 Pte 230903 Pte MONTGOMERY John. R Dorset Yeo. 1714 Pte Dorset Yeo 72047 L/CPI MONTGOMERY Sidney. N.I.H. 1239. L/Cpl. N.I.H 71632 Pte MONTGOMERY Thomas. N.I.H...1909. Pte. 73937 Pte MONTGOMERY Walter S.I.H 1026 Pte. 19th Hrs 73937 205227 Pte. MONTGOMERY Walter N Bucks Hrs 1052 Pte Bucks...Hr.B. 1141. Pte MONTGOMERY William 2nd Life Guards (crossed out) .11th.15th..Hussars. 1141 Pte 71418 Pte MONTGOMERY William N.I.H. 1522 Pte N.I.H. 658. Sergt. MONTGOMERY William S Notts Hrs J S Notts Hrs 658 Sgt Attached here is an original SIH cap and collar badge with a shoulder title. Thank you so much REgards Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaugh Posted 11 March Share Posted 11 March Hi again, One last piece of information for Walters older brother, William Montgomery, potentially, Pte 1141 William Montgomery 11th Hussars. Attached is part of the 1914 Star roll found at the National Archives Kew London WO329/2396, also available online via various platforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallou Posted 11 March Author Share Posted 11 March 9 minutes ago, vaugh said: Hi again, One last piece of information for Walters older brother, William Montgomery, potentially, Pte 1141 William Montgomery 11th Hussars. Attached is part of the 1914 Star roll found at the National Archives Kew London WO329/2396, also available online via various platforms. Good morning Vaugh, Thank you, William got the 1914 star and not the 1914-15 Star I take it? Another question do you think William was a regular soldier? Darrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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