Help identifying the unit and possible year of photo

[Dallou]

Hello, 

Was hoping to find out the unit and possible year this photo would have been taken.

Thank you 

Darrell 

[CorporalPunishment]

21 minutes ago, Dallou said:

Hello, 

Was hoping to find out the unit and possible year this photo would have been taken.

Thank you 

Darrell 

The seated man is South Irish Horse and the standing man is 11th Hussars. The photo dates from 1918 onwards.    Pete.

[AndrewSid]

Starter for 10 dates the photo after July 1916 as the seated man has a wound stripe 

[johnmelling1979]

South Irish Horse Yeomanry Cap badge

[johnmelling1979]

This link may also help 

Giving a good start on wonger who they were etc 

History of the South of Ireland Imperial yeomanry & the South Irish Horse

[Dallou]

Thank you!!!

Appreciate the help. 

[FROGSMILE]

On 03/03/2024 at 00:15, Dallou said:

Thank you!!!

Appreciate the help. 

The 1918 date advised is evidenced by the standing soldier of the 11th (PAO) Hussars wearing the medal ribbon of the 1914 or 1914-15 Star above his left breast pocket.  The ribbons began to be issued in 1918.

Of course we can never know, but I imagine they might well have known each other and arranged somehow to meet up, or bumped into each other somewhere.  I say this because 11th H were in 1st Cavalry Division throughout the war, whereas none of the several dispersed SIH Squadrons served with that formation.

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[charlie2]

On 03/03/2024 at 00:55, CorporalPunishment said:

The photo dates from 1918 onwards

But before 31st July 1922 when the SIH was disbanded.

Charlie

[Dallou]

Thank you, it is an old photo we found in my grand mother's things after she died "years after", it has her father's "my great grand father" name on the back, with no other information, it's one of those things where nobody knows anything about it, and anyone who would has long passed, the only photos we have of him is in his old age, we didn't even know he was in the military or if he was at all. 

Thanks for the help.

[AndrewSid]

If you wish you could provide some detail such as name, age and where he lived.  We can endeavour to help identify his WW1 service.

 

Andy

[Dallou]

Hi Andrew, that would be great, I just need to get the information, as soon as I do I will be more than happy to provide it. 

Thanks

Darrell

[FROGSMILE]

Is it just me, or can anyone else see what appears to be large letters embroidered, or chain stitched onto the left cuff of the standing soldier of the 11th Hussars?

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[charlie2]

There is definitely something on his cuff but it is hard to distinguish. A part of the second „letter“ looks to be like an inverted horseshoe and a badge inside. At first glance the first letter has a similar shape to the righthand side of a 15th Hussars capbadge.  Or should I lay off the coffee! 

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

56 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

There is definitely something on his cuff but it is hard to distinguish. A part of the second „letter“ looks to be like an inverted horseshoe and a badge inside. At first glance the first letter has a similar shape to the righthand side of a 15th Hussars capbadge.  Or should I lay off the coffee! 

Charlie

Thanks Charlie.  It looks positioned too low down, but I think the chain stitching might be representative of the bit of the saddler and harness maker badge.  That said I might just be imagining things!

Edited 4 March by FROGSMILE

[Dallou]

Thanks for the information, it's very informative.

[charlie2]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It looks positioned too low down, but I think the chain stitching might be representative of the bit of the saddler and harness maker badge.  That said I might just be imagining things!

Its hard to decide what belongs to the photo and what is damage but I think you are correct with the badge. I wasn‘t suggesting the chain stitching was a 15th Hussars badge just that it had the same general outline.

Charlie

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, charlie2 said:

Its hard to decide what belongs to the photo and what is damage but I think you are correct with the badge. I wasn‘t suggesting the chain stitching was a 15th Hussars badge just that it had the same general outline.

Charlie

 

Thanks Charlie I understood what you meant, it’s so compromised by the damage to the photo and it’s odd positioning that it’s impossible to be positive what it is.

[Interested]

The stitching looks like the letter "O" to me, followed by possibly an "H", but I do need glasses...

[davidbohl]

Does this help?

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, davidbohl said:

Does this help?

Thanks for trying David.  It still looks like an oversized saddlers badge to my eyes, but I’m not at all positive about it.

[Dallou]

On 04/03/2024 at 11:35, AndrewSid said:

If you wish you could provide some detail such as name, age and where he lived.  We can endeavour to help identify his WW1 service.

 

Andy

Hey Andy, the name I have is Walther Henry Montgomery, date of birth 24/08/1896, possible address around 1911 was 18 Auburn Street, Broadstone. Dublin Ireland.

He also 7 bothers, so possible could be one of them names no sure as yet.

I do know there was a William Montgomery possible year of birth 1885, apparently he was 13th Hussars, that's new information I just heard about.  

Thanks for your help 

Darrell

[AndrewSid]

Darell,

Below is what i  think is your great grandfather.  Looking at nearby service numbers it appears he volunteered for service as a Territorial into the South Irish Horse between the 25th and 31st of August 1914.  War was declared on the 4th of August 1914, so he volunteered quickly. His initial service number was 1026.  He deployed to France on the 20th of January 1915 and was disembodied (left the Army). On the 2nd of January 1919. Image courtesy of Ancestry:

 

The links below gives a short overview of the units movements and the second link is a regimental book and the third further reading of the Regiment.  His date into France des not match the deployment date of any of the Squadrons .  As such, he likely deployed as a draft individual replacement.  This was very common. As the links describe the Regiment was deployed piecemeal and only unit that was in France when he deployed was B Squadron who acted as support troops to the General Headquarters.  The Squadron would have been  approximately 150 men and whilst they suffered few battle casualties there would be a regular need to send men out as replacements to replace sick, wounded or posted men. 

The Regiment eventually came together briefly before being converted into infantry.  Again, most Yeomanry units suffered this fate.

I cannot find his wounded casualty report in either the Times or HMSO lists which is a shame as it would date his wounding and regiment.

Equally, I am unsure when he transferred to the 19th Hussars?  This again would be usefully if we can date it.

So,  a starter for ten and hopefully some fresh eyes may help us along. 

Andy

 

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/cavalry-regiments/the-south-irish-horse/#:~:text=No Territorial Force regiments of,then attache to a Corps.

https://www.wob.com/en-gb/books/mark-perry/south-irish-horse-in-the-great-war/9781526736956?cq_src=google_ads&cq_cmp=18129456947&cq_con=&cq_med=pla&cq_plac=&cq_net=x&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADZzAIC6AsxjZNPQ4X06fPANiqrNY&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0829vovlhAMVvYlQBh3reAPJEAQYASABEgLPCPD_BwE#GOR010127027

http://southirishhorse.com/documents/history.htm

 

Edited 8 March by AndrewSid

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, AndrewSid said:

Darell,

Below is what i  think is your great grandfather.  Looking at nearby service numbers it appears he volunteered for service as a Territorial into the South Irish Horse between the 25th and 31st of August 1914.  War was declared on the 4th of August 1914, so he volunteered quickly, His initial service number was 1026.  He deployed to France on the 20th of January 1915 and was disembodied (left the Army). On the 2nd of January 1919. Image courtesy of Ancestry:

 

The links below gives a short overview of the units movements and the second link is a regimental book and the third further reading of the Regiment.  His date into France des not match the deployment date of any of the Squadrons .  As such, he likely deployed as a draft individual replacement.  This was very common. As the links describe the Regiment was deployed piecemeal and only unit that was in France when he deployed was B Squadron who acted as support troops to the General Headquarters.  The Squadron would have been  approximately 150 men and whilst they suffered few battle casualties there would be a regular need to send men out as replacements to replace sick, wounded or posted men. 

They Regiment eventually came together briefly before being converted into infantry.  Again, most Yeomanry units suffered this fate.

I cannot find his wounded casualty report in either the Times or HMSO lists which is a shame as it would date his wounding and regiment.

Equally, I am unsure when he transferred to the 19th Hussars?  This again would be usefully if we can date it.

So,  a starter for ten and hopefully some fresh eyes may help us along. 

Andy

 

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/cavalry-regiments/the-south-irish-horse/#:~:text=No Territorial Force regiments of,then attached to a Corps.

http://southirishhorse.com/documents/history.htm

 

That ID will be of interest to forum member @vaugh Andy, as I believe he has painstakingly created a database of known members with a view to collating their details. 

[vaugh]

Hi,

Thanks to Frogsmile for the heads up.
I have very little information on Walter Henry Montgomery number 1026 and 73937 SIH and later 19th Hussars.

Enlisted most likely on the 26th August 1914, trained and went overseas to France on the 20th January 1915 with nineteen other men of the SIH. Who he was with or where he actually went is not known. The war diary for that period can be found in WO95/2380, partially transcribed here: http://southirishhorse.com/documents/b_sqn_wardiaries2.htm He could have been one of the fourteen men transferred from base to the squadron, where the other six went is anyone's guess.

As you note the date of birth of the 24th August 1896, there is one such birth in the register from Tullymore Kings County, now renamed Offaly. This Walter Henry Montgomery was born in Crow Street, Tullymore with his parents given as Edward Montgomery and Sara McClalland, Edward is shown as a warder at HM prison Tullymore. This couple were married in Dublin on the 17th February 1881 in St Mary's Church Dublin, Edward is recorded as a prison warder and his address is Grange Gorman Prison. Edwards father John is shown as a Sub constable of constabulary and his wife's father, William was a Private Royal Irish Constabulary. They had quite a large family, possibly nine children. Do you think this is your Great grandfather's family?

Here are the Montgomery men from the Corps of Hussars medal rolls, first the 1914-15 Star, followed by the British War and Victory medal roll.

1914-1915 Star Corps of Hussars Piece 2510:

1983. Pte A/Corpl MONTGOMERY. David R. 0100 ca. 4.15(3) Diamb 4.6.19
11891. Pte MONTGOMERY. Harold. 10th Hrs. 10.10.15 (1) Died. 9.5.17
1239. Pte MONTGOMERY. Sidney. N.I.H. 2.0.15 (1) Class. Z. 23.1.19
1026. Pte MONTGOMERY, Walter S.I.H. 20.1.15 (1) Diamnd. 2.5.19 
1052. Pte MONTGOMERY. Walter. N. Bucks Hrs 21.4.15 (3) Dis 392.16. 13.10.17
656. Sergt. MONTGOMERY, William.J. S.Notts Hrs 26.4.15 (3) K in A. 12.9.15

British War Medal and Victory Medal Corps of Hussars Piece 0013:

235094 A/Cpl MONTGOMERY David R. Glos Hrs 1983 A/Cpl, SGT Glos Hrs
11881 Pte MONTGOMERY Harold 10th Hrs 10th Hrs. 11881 Pte
230903 Pte MONTGOMERY John. R Dorset Yeo. 1714 Pte Dorset Yeo
72047 L/CPI MONTGOMERY Sidney. N.I.H. 1239. L/Cpl. N.I.H
71632 Pte MONTGOMERY Thomas. N.I.H...1909. Pte.
73937 Pte MONTGOMERY Walter S.I.H 1026 Pte. 19th Hrs 73937
205227 Pte. MONTGOMERY Walter N Bucks Hrs 1052 Pte Bucks...Hr.B.
1141. Pte MONTGOMERY William 2nd Life Guards (crossed out) .11th.15th..Hussars. 1141 Pte
71418 Pte MONTGOMERY William N.I.H. 1522 Pte N.I.H. 
658. Sergt. MONTGOMERY William S Notts Hrs J S Notts Hrs 658 Sgt

 

Attached here is an original SIH cap and collar badge with a shoulder title.

Edited 9 March by vaugh
To correct my BW/Vic medal roll list for 1141 William Montgomery and add a screen shot of the original roll.

[Dallou]

On 04/03/2024 at 11:35, AndrewSid said:

If you wish you could provide some detail such as name, age and where he lived.  We can endeavour to help identify his WW1 service.

 

Andy

Hey Andy, the name I have is Walther Henry Montgomery, date of birth 24/08/1896, possible address around 1911 was 18 Auburn Street, Broadstone. Dublin Ireland.

He also 7 bothers, so possible could be one of them names no sure as yet.

I do know there was a William Montgomery possible year of birth 1885, apparently he was 13th Hussars, that's new information I just heard about.  

Thanks for your help 

Darrell