What Happened to Harold Victor Drinkwater?

[Rose Louise]

Hi, does anyone know what Harry Drinkwater did after the war?  All I know is that he died in 1978 in Camberwell.  I can’t find his date of death anywhere or what took him to Camberwell from his original home of Stratford upon Avon.   I have become quite fascinated with his diary as in the book ‘Harry’s War - The Great War Diary of Harry Drinkwater’.  I am hoping that somebody will have some answers, thank you! 

 

[Allan1892]

The 1939 National Register shows that he was living at 5 Rosslyn Hill, Hampstead, his employment is shown as Engineering Clerk. There are a number of different people living at this address, perhaps it was a boarding house.

[Matlock1418]

WFA/Fold3 have an officer's disability claim pension index card.

Lt Harold Victor DRINKWATER, Royal Warwickshire Regiment

Claimed for Gun Shot Wound L Foot

Address John St, Stratford upon Avon

The length of claim is not clear

M

Edit: His age was recorded as 31 on the PIC

Edited 25 February by Matlock1418
edit

[Rose Louise]

Thank you very much Allan and Matlock for your replies, much appreciated.  I do hope Harry didn’t end up in poverty and pain. 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Rose Louise said:

I have become quite fascinated with his diary as in the book ‘Harry’s War - The Great War Diary of Harry Drinkwater’.  I am hoping that somebody will have some answers, thank you! 

Hi @Rose Louise and welcome to the forum

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the book, but see from the book blurb that he won the Military Cross, so has to have been an officer.

As an officer he had to apply for his service medals. His application was being processed in the summer of 1920 and he gave a contact address of Leekhampton Villa, John Street, Stratford on Avon.  (Details from his Medal Rolls Index Card, more commonly known as a MiC. Of the various genealogical sites plus the UK National Archive which holds information about MiC's, only Ancestry has the reverse side where the contact address details are held).

I'm not readily spotting him on the 1921 Census of England & Wales. On the 1911 Census of England and Wales the most likely match, Harold Victor Drinkwater, aged 22, born Stratford on Avon and a Shop Assistant, was recorded lodging in a boarding house at Banbury.

May be a complete co-incidence, but a Harold Victor Drinkwater, of "Holford" Road, Hampstead, was fined 10s at the Marylebone Court for having no rear light on the rear of his motorcyle, according to the edition of the Hampstead News, 13th October 1927. The rest of the report is available via the British Newspaper Archive.

@Allan1892 has covered off the 1939 Register.

By the time his death was registered in the Camberwell Registration District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1978, the information publicly available from the General Registrars Office Index of Deaths is that he was born in February 1889. So sounds like the person who reported the death didn't know him particularly well or was unsure. There is a low cost, (£2.50), option to order a copy of his death registration entry via the General Registrars Office website if that is of interest.

The 1978 Probate Calendar records that a Harold Victor Drinkwater, of Somerville Hastings House, 20 Stockwell Park Crescent, London, SW9 died on the 21st September 1978. Unfortunately the Probate Service doesn't allow a direct link, but if you go from the first page of the search form and just use surname, firstname and year of death it will take you to the entry, (which doesn't really add much more), but should you wish it will allow you to order a copy of the probate order and any associated will, which might tell you about next of kin - he may have moved to be closer to family. Believe those are still available for £1.50.  https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/

Edit to add - address was an Old Peoples Home. https://boroughphotos.org/lambeth/somerville-hastings-home-stockwell-park-crescent/

Hope that helps,
Peter

Edited 25 February by PRC
1] Typos 2] Add died in OAP home

[Rose Louise]

Hi Peter,  you have given me so much interesting information, thank you very much indeed, and for your welcome!  I shall make notes and try to find out more about Harry’s life - it’s the little ordinary everyday incidents like the fine for driving a motorcycle without a rear light in 1927 which for me is so exciting - great!  

[Allan1892]

16 minutes ago, PRC said:

I'm not readily spotting him on the 1921 Census of England & Wales.

Agreed, can't find him at all. The Lives of the First World War (IWM) shows a photograph of him in officer's uniform with 4 medal ribbons -- suggesting that he was still serving for several years after WW1??

(image courtesy of IWM)

[Rose Louise]

That’s amazing to find that he was still in the army after the war ended - thank you Allan. Not what I expected. 
By the way, whatever does ‘old sweats’ mean in green type?  I’m finding this site quite confusing to understand so forgive any errors! 

[PRC]

1 minute ago, Allan1892 said:

Agreed, can't find him at all. The Lives of the First World War (IWM) shows a photograph of him in officer's uniform with 4 medal ribbons -- suggesting that he was still serving for several years after WW1??

Qualified for the Military Cross, 1914/15 Star, (went out to France as a Private with one of the City of Birmingham Battalions that landed on the 21st November 1915), the British War Medal and the Victory Medal, which are probably the four on display here. Believe sanctioning of wearing the ribbon of the last of those was granted late in 1919, even though the medals themselves weren't issued until later.

Nothing in the picture to suggest he carried on serving, not even as a part-time Territorial Force \ Territorial Army Officer which is another possibility.

No obvious surviving long papers or personal file at the National Archive. He doesn't appear on the original list of files retained by the Ministry of Defence for those who were born before the end of 1900 - although that's now known to be far from complete. Not spotting him on the outward bound passenger lists, although of course they don't cover Europe.

For now I'm afraid he remains elusive.

Cheers,
Peter

PS - "Old Sweats" refers to length of time someone has been a member rather than how many posts they've made, level of knowledge or personal hygiene

[Matlock1418]

This appears to likely be his commission in the London Gazette https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30195/supplement/7439

The undermentioned cadets to be temp,, 2nd Lts. (attd.). 27 June 1917: — INFANTRY ... R. War. R.— ... Harold Victor Drinkwater.

M

Edited 26 February by Matlock1418
typo

[Allan1892]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

Believe sanctioning of wearing the ribbon of the last of those was granted late in 1919

Thanks Peter, I forgot that was the case, looks like he was back on civi street by 1921 but where was he

[Rose Louise]

Thank you Peter for all that information - and making me smile about ‘Old Sweats’ !  I see. 
Such a shame that traces of his life seem to have faded away so quickly. 

[Matlock1418]

This might be him - or possibly the curse of similar naming:  https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/33918/page/1525

THE LONDON GAZETTE, 7 MARCH, 1933.

UNDER THE SECOND PROVISO OF CLAUSE 4 OF THE GENERAL REGULATIONS. ...  Foreign Office: Clerk, Special Class, Harold Victor Drinkwater.

M

[Rose Louise]

It has to be Harry surely!  Thank you.  I never realised that it’s possible to discover such details - amazing. 😀

[Matlock1418]

Some more LG for his later career;

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30368/supplement/11459 The undermentioned temp. 2nd Lts., from att'd, unless otherwise stated, are transferred to Serv. Bns., with seniority from 27 June 1917: — INFANTRY ... R. War. R.— ...  H. V. Drinkwater

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31272/supplement/4501 The undermentioned temp. 2nd Lts. to be temp. Lts.: — ...  27 Dec. 1918 ... H. V. Drinkwater, M.C., with precedence next below L. W. Barker:

M

[Rose Louise]

Thanks Matlock - will investigate! 

[Matlock1418]

16 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

This appears to likely be his commission in the London Gazette https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30195/supplement/7439

The undermentioned cadets to be temp,, 2nd Lts. (attd.). 27 June 1917: — INFANTRY ... R. War. R.— ... Harold Victor Drinkwater.

Given the Army usually wanted three years commissioned service, as a minimum, before they let an officer go would suggest he might be leaving the Army c.1920

This LG confirms it https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32011/supplement/8264

R. War. R. Temp. Lt. H. V,, Drinkwater, M.C., relinquishes his commission on completion of service, 18 May 1920, and retains the rank of Lt

M

Edited 26 February by Matlock1418
ocr typo

[Michelle Young]

The blurb here says he stayed in the army for a couple of years post Armistice 

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Harry_s_War.html?id=eYkgBAAAQBAJ&source=kp_author_description&redir_esc=y

[PRC]

Apologies - this is a bit long winded

A few years back I had cause to help another forum member with their project on recruiting in the Birmingham area - a project that has left me with about 3Gbs of data gleaned from local newspapers which I really ought to delete!

For general context, the War Office was completely overwhelmed with the flood of patriotic volunteers in the opening weeks of the war. With the bulk of their effort geared up towards getting the British Expeditionary Force into the field and keeping it there, there was little left to look at expanding the existing army structure to accomodate all these new volunteers let alone equip and start training them. A typical county regiment for example would have two full time regular army battalions, (so in peacetime usually about 1,500/1,600 other ranks in total when it was intended they should have had over a thousand men each), plus a 3rd regular army battalion that in peace time was little more than an admin centre for the Special Reserve - men who signed up for six years but only spent the first six months as full time soldiers. For completeness there were also Territorial Force Battalions - part time soldiers whose commitment was defence of the home islands and who trained one night a week plus attended at least one week of the annual camp. Since it's creation in 1908 most units of the Territorial Force had been notoriously understrength.

Come the declaration of war the reservists and the special reservists were mobilised and the Territorial Force men were "embodied" for full time service. The army reservists were used to top up the fighting battalions to full campaigning strength, the special reservists started refresher training to be able to provide replacement drafts to the fighting battalions once the army reservist pool had been exhausted, and their parent unit, the 3rd Battalion took on a home garrison role as well as a training role for the new recruits. But very, very quickly these 3rd Battalions had a strength of over 2,000 other ranks in many cases and lacked the NCO's to train them and the officers to lead them. Regimental depots were crammed with new recruits waiting for somewhere to go - while the Territorial Force took some they were geared up for home defence and there was a bias against them at the top of the War Office. Meanwhile in the face of this chaos, potential new recruits hung back.

While the nation waited for the War Office to turn it's attention to the mess, countless ideas had their moment in the sun. One came from the civic leaders and newspaper editors of Birmingham. Determined to cement the cities claim to be the second in England, they wanted Birmingham to have it's own Regiment instead of coming under the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. They looked to the examples of London, (the London Regiment), Manchester, (Manchester Regiment) and Liverpool, (The Kings Liverpool Regiment), who fell outside the country structure. And so the proposal came about that if they could guarantee enough men to form a City of Birmingham Regiment then the War Office would have to agree. On Saturday 29th August 1914 desks were opened in council offices and local newspapers for individuals to express an interest in serving with such a Regiment if it was sanctioned. It was also possible to write in to express an interest. Note - these men weren't enlisting at that point.

From Monday 31st lists of names were published of those who had expressed an interest over the weekend \ on the previous day.

In the edition of the Birmingham Daily Post dated Monday 7th September 1914 the list for the weekend included H.V. Drinkwater, of 1, John Street, Stratford on Avon.

Like many of these schemes, the War Office agreed to the formation of Battalions in mid\late September 1914, but only as part of existing Regiments. And while an impressive list of names who expressed an interest was put together, a significant number having realised they wanted to serve had volunteered for earlier new units authorised, while not all those who signed turned out to be fit enough to serve. Eventually it supported four new Battalions of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the 14th (City of Birmingham 1st), 15th (City of Birmingham 2nd), 16th (City of Birmingham 3rd), and 17th (City of Birmingham 4th). https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-warwickshire-regiment/

At that point the War Office sanctioned the creation of the new Battalions the men who expressed an interest were contacted, in the order that they had signed up, and invited in to formally enlist.

Cheers,
Peter

[clk]

Hi Rose,

It appears that his MC was awarded for his actions on3rd/4th June 1918 Whilst serving with 16/Warwicks. Their war diary for the period is here. The diary includes orders for the raid, map references, maps and an aerial photo.

Images sourced from the National Archives

His officer post war admin number appears to have been P110727

Image sourced from the National Archives

That number cross references to a list of service files files that were in the custody of the MoD. and are somewhere (I believe) in the process of being transferred to the National Archives.

Regards
Chris

 

Edited 2 March by clk

[Rose Louise]

Hi everyone again, thank you all very much for your replies last weekend!   I made some investigations last week - I wrote to the Reverend at St. Michael’s Church which stands in the same road as Harry’s Care Home in Camberwell was situated, asking if by chance his grave was in the churchyard - but as yet I have not had a reply. I tried various websites but got no joy from them somehow. I paid the £1.50 to the probate website - good to know that he didn’t die a pauper, but cannot view his Will at the moment as my iPad doesn’t seem to respond when I press the ‘download’ - I shall ask my daughter for help!  I did see that a certain Albert Victor Drinkwater died in Stratford the same year of 1978 - surely he had to be a relative having his middle name as Victor!  He died a day before Harry’s birthday (19th Feb.) which is sad as I imagine he must of been told.  
I found Harry’s first home in Stratford at 1 John Street on rightmove - I thought it a modern house at first but it is actually listed, built 1818 - very pleasant to look at but modernised to death inside which I felt was a shame.

Thanks Matlock for your info. - it’s good to have a precise date when he left the army.

Thanks also Peter for the general background information (I have to admit it took quite a bit of concentration to take in!) and so interesting to see that Harry actually made the first move towards joining up on the 7th September.

Thanks also Chris for putting up the photos about his injury and the MC.  I wonder who has  the medal now - how wonderful to actually own it! 

Great stuff, it’s all slowly adding up ! 
Rose.
 

 

 

 

[happycabbie]

Hi rose

we know a Harry v drink water died in camberwell in 1978 probably in kings college hospital which is in the London borough of southwark

As his home address was in Stockwell park crescent London borough of Lambeth. I would look at the Lambeth cemetery and crematorium in Blackshaw Road, tooting sw17

As your next step .good luck in your search and keep us updated 

[Rose Louise]

Hi Happycabbie,  that’s very helpful, thank you! I never thought of the possibility of Harry dying in a hospital (rather silly of me) and I didn’t look up Blackshaw Road either - I shall add those thoughts to my list!  Will keep you updated!   Rose

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

His Probate Registry entry (courtesy Ancestry):

[Rose Louise]

Thank you Dai !