Grandfathers War Record.

[Vicky Arnall]

Thank you Steve.

 

I will contact him, if he hasn't seen this post?

Regards.

Vicky Arnall 

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Vicky Arnall said:

From the Northumberland Fusiliers museum, who found a reference on his war record.

So is it fair to say Vicky that it is not known at this point whether this Northumberland Fusiliers soldier is your grandfather?

If so, most soldiers who had seen service in a front line infantry Battalion ended up with the Labour Corps as a result of wounds, injuries or ill-health that significantly reduced their military physical grade on a long term \ permanent basis. The Labour Corps itself didn't come into being until February 1917, so that is the earliest he could have ended up serving with them. I don't believe that six digit Labour Corps service number - 610278 - was one of those issued in the initial creation of the Labour Corps, so that soldier was transferred at a later date. He would also have had a later Northumberland Fusiliers service number if he transferred back later on - and that fact that his medals were issued by that Regiment seems to support that the transfer did happen.

That sent me looking for possible appearances in the Official Casualty Lists.

Unfortunately in this case that is likely to mean we need someone with subscription access to the British Newspaper Archive. A check of the free previews shows this possible match in a casualty list that appeared in the edition of The Newcastle Journal dated 4th June 1917.  The preview transcriptions were done by very old software and as you can see are full of mistakes. The original page needs to be viewed to check it out - but if the transcription is correct then looks like 3490 Private W. McCabe had a next of kin living in Bishop Auckland at that time.

Image courtesy the British Newspaper Archive.

That may therefore tie up with your William who was living in his grandmothers house at 23 Brook Street, Coundon Grange in County Durham on the 1911 Census of England & Wales - an address which fell within the Auckland Civil Registration District.

Cheers,
Peter

[Vicky Arnall]

You are an Angel Peter and extremely kind for going to the trouble of doing this.

From this information that you've supplied this is definitely my grandad.

My dad had dementia for quite a long time and the information he gave to me was limited as my grandad died when my dad was 13 and as we all know time memories fade.

Again thank you so much.  I would never in a 1,000000 years have ever found this out. Xxxx

[Vicky Arnall]

28 minutes ago, PRC said:

So is it fair to say Vicky that it is not known at this point whether this Northumberland Fusiliers soldier is your grandfather?

If so, most soldiers who had seen service in a front line infantry Battalion ended up with the Labour Corps as a result of wounds, injuries or ill-health that significantly reduced their military physical grade on a long term \ permanent basis. The Labour Corps itself didn't come into being until February 1917, so that is the earliest he could have ended up serving with them. I don't believe that six digit Labour Corps service number - 610278 - was one of those issued in the initial creation of the Labour Corps, so that soldier was transferred at a later date. He would also have had a later Northumberland Fusiliers service number if he transferred back later on - and that fact that his medals were issued by that Regiment seems to support that the transfer did happen.

That sent me looking for possible appearances in the Official Casualty Lists.

Unfortunately in this case that is likely to mean we need someone with subscription access to the British Newspaper Archive. A check of the free previews shows this possible match in a casualty list that appeared in the edition of The Newcastle Journal dated 4th June 1917.  The preview transcriptions were done by very old software and as you can see are full of mistakes. The original page needs to be viewed to check it out - but if the transcription is correct then looks like 3490 Private W. McCabe had a next of kin living in Bishop Auckland at that time.

Image courtesy the British Newspaper Archive.

That may therefore tie up with your William who was living in his grandmothers house at 23 Brook Street, Coundon Grange in County Durham on the 1911 Census of England & Wales - an address which fell within the Auckland Civil Registration District.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Vicky Arnall]

Hello again and I apologise if you're fed up of me?!

I've just found his Labour Corps number 61027

1920s army number 4246387.

Supplied by very kind people at Labour Corps museum and Northumberland Fusiliers museums.

You'll get another set of wings Peter for your help.

Best wishes.

Vicky Arnall 

[PRC]

37 minutes ago, Vicky Arnall said:

1920s army number 4246387.

I would normally expect that if a man received one of the new style Army service numbers in 1920 then their records would have been retained by the Ministry of Defence - which is why they don't show up on genealogy sites like FindMyPast, Ancestry and Fold 3.

A few years back the Ministry of Defence released a list of all the service records they still held for those born before the end of 1900. They were proposing to transfer those to the National Archive. There is no obvious match for William on that list, but they are now known to be incomplete, plus the transfer has expanded in scope.

The transfer has started but will take a number of years to complete. Ancestry has won the contract to digitise them but it is not yet known how they will be made available.

I don't know for certaan if his records were amongst those retained. The process for getting a copy is set out here https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson

Before you kick the process off you do need to check that seven digit army service number. While the new numbers were meant to stay with a soldier regardless of the unit he served, they were drawn from a number block allocated to his first regiment \ corps, (or the one he was serving with when the new numbers were introduced).

The seven digit number 4246387 was drawn from the block allocated to the Royal Welch Fusiliers. The block ran from 4178001 to 4256000 so I doubt if they got to 4246387 before that regiment ceased to exist.

The number block allocated to the Northumberland Fusiliers ran from 4256001 to 4334000. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Vicky Arnall]

Thank you again so much Peter.  You are truely wonderful.  I will try via the MOD link.

Best wishes.

Vicky Arnall 

[Michelle Young]

Be prepared for a long wait Vicky. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Vicky, it's 4256387

The following entry appears in the MOD Database of post 1920 soldiers:

11006    ADH000096286    File    4256387    MCCABE W    RA    1895-12-21

 

Ancestry have them catalogued in the 'Military Discharges 1920-1971' database.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/271919:61448?tid=&pid=&queryId=a0769f53-33e2-4ae6-842b-5d1e5fc1ef68&_phsrc=bDw1958&_phstart=successSource

This means his records definitely exist, but are probably now at or in transit to the National Archive.
But I believe you still apply for them in the same way via the MOD.

13 minutes ago, Vicky Arnall said:

Thank you again so much Peter.  You are truely wonderful.  I will try via the MOD link.

Best wishes.

Vicky Arnall 

 

Edited 7 April by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Chef_Hendrix]

I know it's been confirmed but here is the Northumberland Fusiliers Wounded from the Newcastle Journal as mentioned by Peter.

 

 

Gaz

Edited 7 April by Chef_Hendrix

[Vicky Arnall]

Thank you Gaz,

Much appreciated.

Best wishes.

Vicky Arnall 

[Keith_history_buff]

MOD Collation Number 11006 has TNA archive reference WO 423.

They have yet to be added to the catalogue. The plan was for these records to be passed to Kew by the end of the financial year ending March 2024.

[PRC]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

The following entry appears in the MOD Database of post 1920 soldiers:

11006    ADH000096286    File    4256387    MCCABE W    RA    1895-12-21

Thanks Dai,

Silly me - I discounted him on a search for McCabe as he appeared to be Royal Artillery.  Should have gone back and checked for possible transcription errors.
Nothing obvious coming up on FindMyPast for the Royal Artillery records from the twenties and thirties either searching "Royal Artillery" plus service number, or "William McCabe" and Artillery.

2 hours ago, Chef_Hendrix said:

I know it's been confirmed but here is the Northumberland Fusiliers Wounded from the Newcastle Journal as mentioned by Peter.

Thanks Gaz - I don't think it has been confirmed so very helpful confirmation that I wasn't sending us off on a complete wild goose chase.

By that stage the Official Casualty Lists that appeared in The Times no longer included other ranks wounded and the weekly publications from the War Office didn't start until a couple of months later, so lucky to even find him!

@Vicky Arnall

- if you haven't picked up on it, the Army have his date of birth as the 21st December 1895. Don't forget to include that in your request even if you know him to have a different date of birth.  That does create a slight discrepancy as his 18th birthday won't have been until December 1913 and yet his four digit service number 3490 is more likely to have been issued in December 1912. Either he originally lied about his age and this subsequently came to light, (although normally the army didn't amend their records, so a soldier would have an army "age"), or he did indeed go in as a young boy soldier.

One thing it might explain though is that date of entry into a theatre of war on his MiC - 18th December 1914. If the Army knew of his 1895 birthdate at that point they shouldn't have sent him out to a Theatre of War until his 19th birthday - which falls three days later and it would probably have taken him that long to catch up with his unit in the field.

One thing that hasn't been looked at so far is his entry in the Roll for the British War Medal and the British Victory Medal. If the clerk at the Northumberland Fusiliers records office following the instructions on the form, (and that regiments are normally fairly good), then it should show all units served with overseas. I suspect the Northumberland Fusiliers database has got it covered off, but always worth a check. An image of the relevant page of the roll can be seen on Ancestry, while FindMyPast have a transcription. In the latter case like the database you are relying on someone elses interpretation of the record.

Fingers crossed that what is working its way to the National Archive is your grand-dads records, and that if you do decide to apply for them you will eventually come back and tells us how it all hangs together. If nothing else it's always good to get feedback on how off the mark we might have been with our informed guesses!

Cheers,
Peter

[Chef_Hendrix]

Here are the medal rolls for William McCabe 3490 confirming he was also with the Labour Corps

 

 

Gaz

[Vicky Arnall]

You people are amazing.  This has blew my mind.

The information is fantastic.  

I'm going to have to piece it altogether and get my head round it all.

You're like contestants on Mastermind.  Human machines

It's actually made me cry as to how helpful you've been.

There are no words to express my gratitude to everyone that's contributed.

Wow!

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thank you Gaz. 

[Vicky Arnall]

2 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

MOD Collation Number 11006 has TNA archive reference WO 423.

They have yet to be added to the catalogue. The plan was for these records to be passed to Kew by the end of the financial year ending March 2024.

 

Thank you. 

[Chef_Hendrix]

6 minutes ago, Vicky Arnall said:

You people are amazing.  This has blew my mind.

The information is fantastic.  

I'm going to have to piece it altogether and get my head round it all.

You're like contestants on Mastermind.  Human machines

It's actually made me cry as to how helpful you've been.

There are no words to express my gratitude to everyone that's contributed.

Wow!

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thank you Gaz. 

I've only made a tiny contribution, but you're welcome!

Are you on Ancestry? There is a family tree on their with what appears to be several photos of William around the the time we are looking at now. It has his birth record from ScotlandsPeople showing he was born 24 April 1895 (0920am) to William McCabe (Horse (?) Caretaker) and Annie McCabe (nee McShane) who were married on 4 July 1894 at Blackfriars District, Glasgow.

Gaz

[Vicky Arnall]

No I'm not Gaz, but a cousin did give me that information recently who is.

Much appreciated.

Best wishes.

Vicky Arnall