When did saluting first require a hat?

[PhilB]

I watched the film Benediction about Sassoon and Owen the other night. Both actors saluted freely without wearing a hat. Can anyone say when it was first promulgated that saluting required a hat to be worn and why it might have been thought necessary?

[DavidOwen]

Well Wiki has this Salute - Wikipedia - but as always the Wiki caution applies

[KizmeRD]

Both actors freely saluted without hats because they were in fact actors, not military personnel who would have known better. Many actors dislike having to wear any form of headgear, as it can obscure their face (and look) in front of the camera.

MB

[Uncle George]

Here’s something from R. Money Barnes’ ‘A History of the Regiments and Uniforms of the British Army’ (1950):

 

[PhilB]

So, if saluting is a representation of lifting the cap, it can’t be done bare headed? That would date the hat wearing requirement to the early eighteenth century then. Not something adopted by other countries though.

[Pat Atkins]

Slightly off-topic, but this in the Wikipedia entry surprised me: 

Before 1917, for Other Ranks (i.e. not officers) the salute was given with whichever hand was furthest from the person being saluted, whether that was the right or the left. 

[Old Forge]

Checking Infantry Training 1914: 'A soldier without his cap, or when carrying anything other than his arms, will, if standing still, come to attention as an officer passes; if walking, he will turn his head smartly towards the officer in passing him.' The wording is exactly the same in the War Office Manual of Elementary Drill, 1935. 

Cheers,

Richard

[PhilB]

Would the officer salute back?

[Old Forge]

Not if he's not wearing a cap either, but if he is then yes - salutes are always returned (was the same in my day). Anyone in uniform recognising a senior officer in mufti are also expected to salute. 

Cheers,

Richard

 

[Pat Atkins]

Aha, a right- or left-hand salute. Thanks, Richard. Had no idea.

 

Cheers, Pat

[Old Forge]

I don't know why the pages above are showing in portrait, they're landscape on my PC. Note the illustration is a left-handed salute.

Richard

[FROGSMILE]

On 20/02/2024 at 15:32, Old Forge said:

Checking Infantry Training 1914: 'A soldier without his cap, or when carrying anything other than his arms, will, if standing still, come to attention as an officer passes; if walking, he will turn his head smartly towards the officer in passing him.' The wording is exactly the same in the War Office Manual of Elementary Drill, 1935. 

Cheers,

Richard

It was unchanged up until my departure in 2009.  I’d be surprised if it’s been tinkered with, although hair styles and shaving have been. 

[michaeldr]

23 hours ago, Old Forge said:

I don't know why the pages above are showing in portrait, they're landscape on my PC. Note the illustration is a left-handed salute.

It's happened to me before too 

[FROGSMILE]

This extract below seems like quite a reasonable explanation.

Until the late 1860s the salute was done with the flat of the palm turned down and at a sharp right angle from the wrist.  This is by far the best history of the salute that I’ve read: https://militaryheritage.com/hand-salute-army-history.htm

 

Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

It seems that US attitudes to saluting and head covering are somewhat complex:-

 

Seth Leigh

Army Officer, two deployments at US Army National GuardAuthor has 179 answers and 644.7Kanswer views4y

Related

Why do Americans salute without a hat or beret on? This does not happen in any other country.

Keep in mind that each US military service has their own regulations regarding customs and courtesies and such, and while they overlap greatly, they aren’t identical. Thus we observe the principle that we should do whatever seems appropriate at the time while interacting with members from other services and customs and courtesies come up.

Thus it was that I returned the salute, while not wearing a hat indoors, of a Marine sergeant who was wearing a pistol belt (thus “under arms”, and also wearing his hat indoors (because he was “under arms”)). He saluted me as I approached, so I returned it, even though Army folks wouldn’t have saluted in that position. That is, an Army sergeant wouldn’t have had his hat on indoors in that position, and thus wouldn’t have saluted me. He did what was right by his service regulations, and I did right by him by returning the salute.

Normally in the US Army we wouldn’t salute indoors, or without a hat or beret on. There are exceptions. Here are the exceptions I can think of off hand:

1. When reporting. This can be as a result of being ordered to report to some senior officer in their office. Upon entering, one will stand at attention in front of the desk, say something like “Sir, Captain Leigh reporting as ordered!” or something like that while holding the salute until it’s returned. This will occur despite not wearing a hat. This is the same if one is reporting to a board; one comes to attention centered on the president of the board and renders a salute while reporting.
2. In a formation when the NCO in charge of a formation gives the order “Report!” each squad leader in turn from front to rear will render a salute while they account for their folks. The NCO in charge of the formation will return that salute and take the report of the next squad leader. It’s as far as I can think right now the only time enlisted folks will salute each other unless one of them wears the Medal of Honor. This will occur even if the formation occurs indoors, with no hats on.
3. If I’m called to the front of a formation to be promoted or receive an award or something I’ll come to attention in front of the officer who summoned me and render a salute, which will be returned. I’ll do this even if the formation is held indoors, with no hats.

There might be another exception or two that I’m not remembering offhand. All of these exceptions are part of something else, not just passing an officer in the hallway or something.

There are other “corner cases” where I’ll salute without my hat on, and these are all dictated by the idea that a salute offered should be returned, no matter what. It’s considered disrespectful not to return a salute. If I’m saluted by a gate guard while sitting in my car with no hat on, even in civvies, I’ll always return it out of respect for the salute that was offered. About the only time I’ve not returned a salute was when I legitimately had my hands full, such as carrying a bunch of gear out to a vehicle or something, and if someone salutes me in that situation I’ll just nod and return a verbal greeting and drive on, since returning the salute is physically impossible. Most folks would know enough not to offer a salute in that circumstance, but some folks who are new, inexperienced, or whatever sometimes do.

[Gareth Davies]

Saluting without headdress is still very much a thing for the Blues & Royals.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Gareth Davies said:

Saluting without headdress is still very much a thing for the Blues & Royals.

Do they explain the rationale?  That’s not one that I’ve heard about before now Gareth and I’m intrigued.

[AndrewSid]

27 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

aluting without headdress is still very much a thing for the Blues & Royals.

One suspects just to be different is a just as likely as any other answer!

The act of saluting without headdress in films involving the British military continues to annoy and is a good marker if they bothered to hire or listen to a military advisor for the more important scenes. 

Edited 21 February by AndrewSid

[Scalyback]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Do they explain the rationale?  That’s not one that I’ve heard about before now Gareth and I’m intrigued.

Regimental tradition as usual. 

https://www.forces.net/services/army/who-are-household-cavalry-and-why-are-they-trusted-guardians-monarch#:~:text=The Blues and Royals is,when not wearing a headdress.

Also going at it bare headed

http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/2023/12/10/going-at-it-bald-headed-the-battle-of-warburg-31st-july-1760-a-scenario-for-tricorn/

A gaming site but very informative about 2/3rds down

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Scalyback said:

Regimental tradition as usual. 

https://www.forces.net/services/army/who-are-household-cavalry-and-why-are-they-trusted-guardians-monarch#:~:text=The Blues and Royals is,when not wearing a headdress.

Also going at it bare headed

http://www.jemimafawr.co.uk/2023/12/10/going-at-it-bald-headed-the-battle-of-warburg-31st-july-1760-a-scenario-for-tricorn/

A gaming site but very informative about 2/3rds down

Thank you, I should have guessed that the good old Marquess of Granby might’ve had something to do with it.

2 hours ago, AndrewSid said:

One suspects just to be different is a just as likely as any other answer!

The act of saluting without headdress in films involving the British military continues to annoy and is a good marker if they bothered to hire or listen to a military advisor for the more important scenes. 

Agreed, it absolutely incenses me and I cannot take dramas seriously as soon as they b***er the basics up.  When it’s the BBC it seems even more of a travesty given their responsibility as the nation’s premier public service broadcaster.

Edited 21 February by FROGSMILE

[Scalyback]

Did the The Great War produce any "traditions". It appears hanging the brick did continue through the war.

https://www.forces.net/heritage/history/proudest-tradition-british-army

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Scalyback said:

Did the The Great War produce any "traditions". It appears hanging the brick did continue through the war.

https://www.forces.net/heritage/history/proudest-tradition-british-army

 

 

I think it reinforced the importance of rum as a front line spirit, although it was already a well established ritual for generations beforehand.

[Scalyback]

Prefer to salute the wine. 

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com/world-war-i-articles/alcohol-in-the-trenches-the-rum-ration/

 

Reminds me, need to write up about a naughty TF Quatermaster that caused a few issues just prior to the Great War. A pub, A drunk and a very expensive accident.

[Old Forge]

4 hours ago, michaeldr said:

It's happened to me before too 

Thanks Michael!

Richard

[mebu]

I've noticed from the drawings above that some salute with the hand held upright, palms out, while some have palms down. Does that suggest a difference of time/tradition?

Peter