Royal Marine Hector Henry Cook RMA/14813 (214813)

[TomP]

Hello

I want to post a new thread asking for assistance researching a Royal Marine from the Great War. I was unsure though whether this would belong in the 'Soldiers and their units' section, or 'Sailors, navies and the war at sea' section. I am looking to query his wartime service which as 'Royal Marine Artillery' would have been land based (not 100% on this), but as he was in the Navy I was unsure? Its awkward as the information I am looking to find out might well decide which is the correct section, but I don't know yet. 

Please can somebody advise and I will post in the appropriate section!

Cheers

Tom

[rolt968]

10 minutes ago, TomP said:

Hello

I want to post a new thread asking for assistance researching a Royal Marine from the Great War. I was unsure though whether this would belong in the 'Soldiers and their units' section, or 'Sailors, navies and the war at sea' section. I am looking to query his wartime service which as 'Royal Marine Artillery' would have been land based (not 100% on this), but as he was in the Navy I was unsure? Its awkward as the information I am looking to find out might well decide which is the correct section, but I don't know yet. 

Please can somebody advise and I will post in the appropriate section!

Cheers

Tom

Hello Tom

I have been trying to think what I have done with this kind of thing in the past. I think that I have put questions relating to the Royal Marines under "Sailors, navies and the war at sea" even if they didn't actually go to sea. The possible exception might be men who served with the Royal Naval Divison (although I think I have put them under the "Sailors, navies, etc".) It would probaly be most useful wherever you put the thread if you put clear tags.

Do you have a prticular reason for thinking that your man didn't serve at sea?

RM

[TomP]

4 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Hello Tom

I have been trying to think what I have done with this kind of thing in the past. I think that I have put questions relating to the Royal Marines under "Sailors, navies and the war at sea" even if they didn't actually go to sea. The possible exception might be men who served with the Royal Naval Divison (although I think I have put them under the "Sailors, navies, etc".) It would probaly be most useful wherever you put the thread if you put clear tags.

Do you have a prticular reason for thinking that your man didn't serve at sea?

RM

@rolt968 Hello. Thanks for your reply. 

This is part of my confusion. According to an except from his service record (I can post the full thing as/when I post my actual main thread) he was in the Royal Marine Artillery but also served aboard ships during the course of the war. I can't see anything here specifically saying he was fighting on land (May-December 1916) but am unsure what else the RMA were doing (this is partly what I am hoping to establish in general), then he was onboard HMS Royal Sovereign Jan 1917 - July 1919 when he then rejoined the RMA again. 

What do you think?

Source: The National Archives

[horatio2]

Post your full question in the naval section.

[kenf48]

I've moved this to 'Sailors etc"

[horatio2]

In answer to your initial queries:-

First principle - the Royal Marines (RMA (and RMLI until 1923) were and are part of the Royal Navy.

Looking just at his WW1 service, Gunner COOK (RMA/14813) saw sea service in the battleship HMS ROYAL SOVERIGN where he would have formed part of a gun crew (probably 15-inch). When he was not embarked he was based at the HQ RMA in Eastney Barracks, Southsea (shown as "RM Arty"). He was not "fighting on land".

The RMA were widely deployed ashore and afloat. The full scope of this is best studied in the book "Britain's Sea Soldiers" available on this link   - 

 https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89100004282&view=1up&seq=13&skin=2021

COOK served on to pension in 1936. After 1923 (when RMA and RMLI were merged) he was a Royal Marine with Register No. PO/214813

Edited 16 February by horatio2

[TomP]

 

@kenf48 Thank you Ken

@spof I am unable to edit the name of this thread now it is in the correct sub-forum. Could an admin kindly re-name the thread to 'Royal Marine Hector Henry Cook 14813 (214813)' - if I should ask elsewhere in future please let me know, you are the only admin I have spoken to directly. Thank you!  

 

30 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Looking just at his WW1 service, Gunner COOK (RMA/14813) saw sea service in the battleship HMS ROYAL SOVERIGN where he would have formed part of a gun crew (probably 15-inch). When he was not embarked he was based at the HQ RMA in Eastney Barracks, Southsea (shown as "RM Arty"). He was not "fighting on land".

@horatio2 Thanks for your reply. I had no idea that Royal Marines onboard would be involved with the actual gun crew, I assume that was purely a sailors job within the ship. 

 

43 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

The full scope of this is best studied in the book "Britain's Sea Soldiers"

Thank you for this suggestion. I will do some more reading this weekend. 

 

Since the thread has been moved I will now post the contents I was going to include in my planned post. 

[Keith_history_buff]

Thinking aloud, how long was the training, to be a Gunner. Was it six months during the war? The Jack Clegg website implies that training in peacetime had been 12 months duration.

[TomP]

Marine Hector Henry Cook enlisted in November 1915 and served during WW1. He earned his LSGC medal in 1931. It then seems that he left the Navy a few years later but rejoined just prior to the Second World War to serve primarily in the 'Ports Divn' which I presume meant he was stationed in Portsmouth on base, also hence his medal entitlement (I know the WW2 service is not relevant to the forum so not looking for help here).

I'll enclose his complete service record, along with his set of medals, showing service in both World Wars, along with his LSGC medal. 

Can anybody assist me in determining anything else about his Great War Service? I have looked up online some details about HMS Royal Sovereign but the sources I am seeing isn't actually disclosing much info and I know this forum is a fountain of knowledge full of helpful people!

Thanks in advance for any help
Tom

 

Service Record:

Source: The National Archives

 

Medal Grouping:

[horatio2]

4 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

Thinking aloud, how long was the training, to be a Gunner. Was it six months during the war? The Jack Clegg website implies that training in peacetime had been 12 months duration.

His initial RMA Draft as "Supernumerary" in late 1915 was to undertake six months of Recruit Infantry Training, after which he could be promoted to Gunner 2nd Class.. A further five months (total eleven months) saw him promoted to Gunner.

An internet search for HMS ROYAL SOVEREIGN (1905) brings up plenty of hits including Wikipedia  -  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Royal_Sovereign_(05)

As an RM  Life Pensioner he (in Class 'A' of the Royal Fleet Reserve (RFR)) he was liable for recall at any time. "As Pensioners they are already liable to be called upon by the Admiralty to serve in the Fleet in an emergency." and he was so mobilised in 1938 and again in 19139 for WW2.

[Keith_history_buff]

In simple terms, the corps of Royal Marines were large. There were subdivisions of this entity, conveniently termed as "Divisions" and named after the geographic location. In a similar manner, ratings of the Royal Navy have a home port. The word "Division" has the meaning of a subdivision, rather than the army terminology of a body of 10,000 or so men that will go into combat as a composite force.

It is common to see a prefix in front of the official number that a Royal Marine NCO, Private or Gunner has been allocated, such as PO for Portsmouth. The Royal Marine Artillery was an administrative Division of the corps until the Royal Marine Light Infantry and Royal Marine Artillery were merged on 22 June 1923.

Here is a link to an article, written by a former archivist of the Royal Marines, which may be of interest. I believe the publication is the Sheet Anchor but I am unaware of the issue date.

https://rmhistorical.com/images/RM Register Numbers.pdf 

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said:

I believe the publication is the Sheet Anchor but I am unaware of the issue date.

Royal Marines Historical Society, "The Sheet Anchor", Volume XXXVIII, Number 1, (Summer 2013).

[Keith_history_buff]

Thank you for assisting by providing a full citation for the source of the article.

[horatio2]

14 hours ago, TomP said:

I'll enclose his complete service record, along with his set of medals, showing service in both World Wars, along with his LSGC medal. 

@TomP A fine set of medals to match lengthy RM service in two World Wars.

For accuracy, please note that his full and correct Register Numbers were RMA/14813 (until 1923) and then PO/214813 (Portsmouth Division RM). The number 14813 was also held by three RMLI men, so the RMA prefix is essential to identify Gunner COOK.

[spof]

Hi Tom

I've edited the title of the thread. For future reference, if you've started the thrad you can just edit your first post and the title can also be edited.

[domwalsh]

A small mention in the Portsmouth Evening News 23rd September 1926

[TomP]

@Keith_history_buff & @horatio2 Thank you both for your replies, especially the clarification of his Service numbers etc. I appreciate the links to.

 

@spof Thank you for your assistance . I had tried to do this myself but didn't have the option to edit.

 

@domwalsh What a brilliant find. Very interesting, ending up in the papers for some misconduct! I wonder whether this is why he never made it beyond Private despite his long service spanning both world wars. Thank you very much for sharing. 

[Keith_history_buff]

Regarding his medals:

Defence Medal
War Medal 1939–1945
If you wanted to know more about these, WW2 talk would probably be the place to go and ask questions. I have seen a fair few WW1 veterans in the Royal Marines who returned to the colours in WW2. They performed Home Service duties in the UK, as "safe pairs of hands", facilitating the training of younger men, and freeing them up for overseas duties.

He was entitled to a British War Medal, given that he had completed more than 28 days active service during the war.
Likewise, he was entitled to a Victory Medal, there being eligibility to ratings and marines 'mobilized and rendered approved service  (i) at sea between midnight 4-5 August 1914, and midnight 11-12 November, 1918.'

Given that he was neither at sea, nor on land in a theatre of war on a date prior to 31 December 1915, he is not eligible for the 1914-15 Star.
 

[horatio2]

48 minutes ago, TomP said:

ending up in the papers for some misconduct! I wonder whether this is why he never made it beyond Private despite his long service spanning both world wars

A relatively minor traffic offence such as this would not affect his RM career. I think he was just content to be a gunner/marine. Note that the column headed "Passed for - Date", which would record his passing (educationally and professionally) for Bombardier RMA or Corporal RM, has no such entry.

[domwalsh]

Here's his probate details, date of death etc

[TomP]

21 hours ago, Keith_history_buff said:

He was entitled to a British War Medal, given that he had completed more than 28 days active service during the war.
Likewise, he was entitled to a Victory Medal, there being eligibility to ratings and marines 'mobilized and rendered approved service  (i) at sea between midnight 4-5 August 1914, and midnight 11-12 November, 1918.'

Given that he was neither at sea, nor on land in a theatre of war on a date prior to 31 December 1915, he is not eligible for the 1914-15 Star.
 

@Keith_history_buff Thanks Keith. Just out of interest, as Cook is down as being assigned to the HMS Royal Sovereign from 02/01/1917, would he have qualified for the 1914/15 star if he'd been assigned to the ship at say the end of December? I can't see any proof online that the ship was at sea in December/January but just curious how specifically the 'theatre of war' element applies since technically anywhere around the UK was at risk of U-Boats pretty much anytime they set sail. Obviously not important since he joined the ship early 1917 juts curious as Cook is the only Navy medal recipient I have so less familiar with RN entitlements. Cheers!

20 hours ago, domwalsh said:

Here's his probate details, date of death etc

@domwalsh Thanks a lot, I will save this with the other records I have. 

Edited 19 February by TomP
Spelling typo!

[Keith_history_buff]

1 hour ago, TomP said:

@Keith_history_buff Thanks Keith. Just out of interest, as Cook is down as being assigned to the HMS Royal Sovereign from 02/01/1917, would he have qualified for the 1914/15 star if he'd been assigned to the ship at say the end of December [1916]? I can't see any proof online that the ship was at sea in December/January but just curious how specifically the 'theatre of war' element applies since technically anywhere around the UK was at risk of U-Boats pretty much anytime they set sail. Obviously not important since he joined the ship early 1917 juts curious as Cook is the only Navy medal recipient I have so less familiar with RN entitlements. Cheers!

Below are the pertinent points with regard to the rules for the eligibility to the 1914-15 Star, as issued by the Admiralty

Admiralty Order 4045 – 24/12/1918

His Majesty the King having been pleased to approve the grant of a distinctive decoration to the Forces which took part in active operations of war up to the 31st December 1915, the following regulations for the award of the decoration as regards the Navy are issued for information:-

1.  
2.  
3.  
4. The star will be granted... (a) to officers and men... who were mobilized and served (1) at sea or (2) on shore within the theatres of military operation (b)... (c)... (d)...'
5.  

So, in answer to your question, he embarked 1 year and 2 days after the cut-off date, for eligibility to the 1914- 15 Star.

An attempt at a timeline:

25 Nov 1915 Enlistment for 12 years service. Commences his "basic training"

19 May 1916 Has concluded initial training, is now ranked as Gunner 2nd Class

31 Oct 1916 Completes further training, and is ranked as Gunner. Presumably posted to Eastney Barracks, pending a posting to a ship or otherwise.

2 Jan 1917 Embarks HMS Royal Sovereign.

27 Jul 1919 Disembarks HMS Royal Sovereign. Presumably posted to Eastney Barracks, pending a posting to a ship or otherwise. Shore leave is likely, but is not recorded in registers of service, as have no relevance to the pay and legal reasons for record keeping, in accordance with the Naval Discipline Act.

[Keith_history_buff]

From a medal entitlement perspective, I would consider 31 October 1916 to be his first day of Active Service, as per the Admiralty rules.

[TomP]

Thanks @Keith_history_buff. My apologies, my Monday morning brain had collated December 1916 into 1915 for some reason so I thought he only missed out on the star by a few days, rather than an additional year!

 

1 minute ago, Keith_history_buff said:

From a medal entitlement perspective, I would consider 31 October 1916 to be his first day of Active Service, as per the Admiralty rules.

This is helpful perspective thank you. 

[Keith_history_buff]

Thanks Tom. I thought it important to add the last part, as the interpretation is very different from the War Office rules for soldiers, relative to medal entitlement.