John McNicol Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders - Help with uniforms, photos & service record

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/02/2024 at 22:24, Bob Davies said:

One thing, it kept the unit or formation tailors in a job.

I imagine every regiment had a number of them, though I can't imagine how they would be set up/organised.

Yes each battalion had a sergeant Master Tailor and prewar men attached under him from the service companies, plus some enlisted boy entrants.

During the war the boys were sent to the depot until coming of age and the men almost certainly returned to their companies, initially at least.

In the early part of the war the Master Tailors were usually with the 3rd Line / Echelon (incl ‘battalion HQ rear’) along with the RQMS, Orderly Room Clerk and his staff, plus any odds and sods, provost sergeant, regimental police, etc.  The battalion’s 2i/c would often be there too, and later in the war the left-out-of-battle or battle surplus detachment.  This echelon of the battalion was usually within a short march of Bde HQ.

By the end of the war I think that battalion tailors were probably brigaded as it seems unlikely that every war-raised battalion had one on it’s establishment, so essential needs were probably centralised, as and where convenient. 

Edited 7 March by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

The tailors in Highland regiments were also required to be kiltmakers and often time-served at that

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

The tailors in Highland regiments were also required to be kiltmakers and often time-served at that

Well of course.  It was what would be expected after all.  Apart from pleating it seems fair to say not an especially complicated garment to make when compared with, say a doublet, with its Inverness flaps.

Edited 6 February by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

True, but the pleating is surprisingly complicated, especially when achieving a good fit. As I've mentioned before I am myself the son of a properly time-served kilt maker and can claim first hand experience 

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, 6RRF said:

True, but the pleating is surprisingly complicated, especially when achieving a good fit. As I've mentioned before I am myself the son of a properly time-served kilt maker and can claim first hand experience 

I don’t mean at all to gainsay the special and devoted skill gained from time served and experience, but I suspect that a competent line infantry master tailor would quickly pick up the essentials.

Edited 6 February by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

6 hours ago, 6RRF said:

The tailors in Highland regiments were also required to be kiltmakers and often time-served at that

Dingwall Depot 1915

[6RRF]

That's a good one. The dark waistcoats are interesting. I've seen [but of course can't now locate] a similar photie in which its clear that they too are tartan

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, 6RRF said:

That's a good one. The dark waistcoats are interesting. I've seen [but of course can't now locate] a similar photie in which its clear that they too are tartan

Probably connected with mess dress as ‘vests’ (aka waistcoats colloquially, but not really correctly) were often made up using offcuts of tartan intended for kilts.

Edited 7 February by FROGSMILE

[6RRF]

Were indeed, but in this case and that other photie I can't find, they were being used as an informal working dress while sewing. Mind you that's in barracks.

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, 6RRF said:

Were indeed, but in this case and that other photie I can't find, they were being used as an informal working dress while sewing. Mind you that's in barracks.

Yes I understand and have seen that before, I just meant that they were perhaps made up in that way and then used as a convenient working garment.

[PaulGrattidge]

On 03/02/2024 at 22:53, mancpal said:

In photo 1 is William Wilson wearing (albeit rather high up) the ribbon of the QSA? I think he does have something above his left cuff, perhaps a good conduct chevron?

Simon

I think I have found him 😊

Luckily there is only one W. Wilson on the medal roll for the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders for the Boer War

Although it says the Kings South Africa Medal?? was this the same as the Queens? where the ribbons different?

Also guessing G.C. Badge the same as a good conduct chevron?

Sad part is he died on the same day John was wounded during the battle of Le Cateau. But this was not know till 1915 as he was listed as missing

Thank you for filling in another part of the story

 

Edited 10 February by PaulGrattidge

[FROGSMILE]

19 minutes ago, PaulGrattidge said:

I think I have found him 😊

Luckily there is only one W. Wilson on the medal roll for the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders for the Boer War

Although it says the Kings South Africa Medal?? was this the same as the Queens? where the ribbons different?

Also guessing G.C. Badge the same as a good conduct chevron?

Sad part is he died on the same day John was wounded during the battle of Le Cateau. But this was not know till 1915 as he was listed as missing

Thank you for filling in another part of the story

 

Yes GC badge was the Army term for the inverted good conduct stripe.

The medal ribbons for the Queen’s and King’s South Africa medals differed substantially.

Edited 10 February by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

14 hours ago, PaulGrattidge said:

Luckily there is only one W. Wilson on the medal roll for the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders for the Boer War

Although it says the Kings South Africa Medal?? was this the same as the Queens? where the ribbons different?

 

Paul, I got two W Wilsons on the AngloBoerWar.com site.  One with 1A&SH and another with 3A&SH.  The attached 6982 Wm. Wilson service record shows this chap had both the QSA and KSA medals for his service in SA. The OP photo just shows a single ribbon.

You have told us that Wm. Wilson was killed in 1914 and we know that was with 2A&SH (CWGC).  Maybe the single ribbon we are looking at is not QSA but the India Medal 1896 with clasp 'Punjab Frontier 1897-98' that was awarded to 2A&SH.  The absence of the additional QSA/KSA ribbons could therefore be due to the photo being taken near the arrival of your grandfather but before the formal issue of the QSA/KSA ribbons to Wm. Wilson.  The soon to replaced "Colonial Pattern" Foreign Service Helmets at their feet support this time ......... although there is no mention of India or IM on this particular page of his Service Record it may be mentioned elsewhere.  IMHO the ribbon in the OP also matches a little better.

(Incredibly the attached surviving India Medal (Calcutta Mint) medal box is to 5460 Pte R Wilson 2A&SH........near ......but not near enough!  It survives because R Wilson didn't as he died of dysentery)

 

Edited 11 February by TullochArd

[PaulGrattidge]

On 10/02/2024 at 21:14, TullochArd said:

Paul, I got two W Wilsons on the AngloBoerWar.com site.  One with 1A&SH and another with 3A&SH.  The attached 6982 Wm. Wilson service record shows this chap had both the QSA and KSA medals for his service in SA. The OP photo just shows a single ribbon.

You have told us that Wm. Wilson was killed in 1914 and we know that was with 2A&SH (CWGC).  Maybe the single ribbon we are looking at is not QSA but the India Medal 1896 with clasp 'Punjab Frontier 1897-98' that was awarded to 2A&SH.  The absence of the additional QSA/KSA ribbons could therefore be due to the photo being taken near the arrival of your grandfather but before the formal issue of the QSA/KSA ribbons to Wm. Wilson.  The soon to replaced "Colonial Pattern" Foreign Service Helmets at their feet support this time ......... although there is no mention of India or IM on this particular page of his Service Record it may be mentioned elsewhere.  IMHO the ribbon in the OP also matches a little better.

(Incredibly the attached surviving India Medal (Calcutta Mint) medal box is to 5460 Pte R Wilson 2A&SH........near ......but not near enough!  It survives because R Wilson didn't as he died of dysentery)

 

Think I might have got carried away 😁 now not sure if 6982 is my William Wilson,

found the second W. Wilson (think his number is 5209 or 5229)but struggling to find anything about him.

I've been back to my great aunty to see if she could remember anything that could help identify our William and she is sure he lived in Glasgow (same as my John McNicol my great grandfather) before enlisting, so I think this excludes William Wilson 6982 as he lived Edinburgh. 

I did manage to get the original photo below which after a better scan can see the ribbons better but does not look like the QSM or KSM I could see online, or the Punjab frontier medal?. It also says the photo is from Poona India which was chopped of the bottom of the first photo, if this is correct the photo dates between Dec 1904 - April 1906

Has anyone got any other ideas on the ribbons?

Thanks,

Paul

[FROGSMILE]

42 minutes ago, PaulGrattidge said:

Think I might have got carried away 😁 now not sure if 6982 is my William Wilson,

found the second W. Wilson (think his number is 5209 or 5229)but struggling to find anything about him.

I've been back to my great aunty to see if she could remember anything that could help identify our William and she is sure he lived in Glasgow (same as my John McNicol my great grandfather) before enlisting, so I think this excludes William Wilson 6982 as he lived Edinburgh. 

I did manage to get the original photo below which after a better scan can see the ribbons better but does not look like the QSM or KSM I could see online, or the Punjab frontier medal?. It also says the photo is from Poona India which was chopped of the bottom of the first photo, if this is correct the photo dates between Dec 1904 - April 1906

Has anyone got any other ideas on the ribbons?

Thanks,

Paul

It looks like the India General Service Medal awarded on the North West Frontier of India in various expeditions of the late 1890s.  The 2nd Battalion A&SH were deployed and men eligible.

[CorporalPunishment]

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It looks like the India General Service Medal awarded on the North West Frontier of India in various expeditions of the late 1890s.  The 2nd Battalion A&SH were deployed and men eligible.

I am in no doubt at all that the medal ribbon is that of the QSAM.        Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, PaulGrattidge said:

Think I might have got carried away 😁 now not sure if 6982 is my William Wilson,

found the second W. Wilson (think his number is 5209 or 5229)but struggling to find anything about him.

I've been back to my great aunty to see if she could remember anything that could help identify our William and she is sure he lived in Glasgow (same as my John McNicol my great grandfather) before enlisting, so I think this excludes William Wilson 6982 as he lived Edinburgh. 

I did manage to get the original photo below which after a better scan can see the ribbons better but does not look like the QSM or KSM I could see online, or the Punjab frontier medal?. It also says the photo is from Poona India which was chopped of the bottom of the first photo, if this is correct the photo dates between Dec 1904 - April 1906

Has anyone got any other ideas on the ribbons?

Thanks,

Paul

I recommend you accept Pete’s identification, his knowledge of medals is particularly good. 

Edited 5 March by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I am in no doubt at all that the medal ribbon is that of the QSAM.        Pete.

 

4 hours ago, PaulGrattidge said:

...I did manage to get the original photo below which after a better scan can see the ribbons better but does not look like the QSM or KSM I could see online...

Paul - I agree with Pete 100%, it is the ribbon of the QSA as typically rendered by orthochromatic film. If it was the IGSM it would look rather different:

 

 

Edited 6 March by Andrew Upton

[PaulGrattidge]

21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I recommend you accept Pete’s identification, his knowledge of medals is particularly good. 

 

22 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I am in no doubt at all that the medal ribbon is that of the QSAM.        Pete.

 😊Excellent thanks everyone😊