John McNicol Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders - Help with uniforms, photos & service record

[PaulGrattidge]

Hi everyone,

I am researching my great grandfather John McNicol who served with the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (8855)

I have found his pension records which have helped with his service, he served briefly in South Africa (17-12-1902 to 29-05-1903) just after the end of the Boer War 1902 and then in Poona, India (17-12-1904 to 06-04-1906), he was then transferred to the reserves until being called back up at the start of the war but only served a month as was wounded at Le Cataeu.

I have a number of family photos but not being an expert on uniforms cant work out which are from which tour??

I think this is South Africa?? 

John on the Left, William Wilson his best friend on the right, is that a stripe on Williams arm? if so what rank is he?

I think this one is in India Uniform?? (although taken in Edinburgh)

And think are these from WW1?

I think this is 1914 from age of their children so maybe before mobilisation?? did reserves have different uniforms?

John on the Extreme right, is this also WW1 ?? Looks like this one on a ship? it looks like ladders they are sitting on?

Looks like some have different buttons and caps? do you know what regiment the others are?

It also looks like John got him self in to a bit of trouble during his time in the army but I am struggling to read some the writing, I'm hoping someone might be more familiar with some of the military terms and might make some scene??

I can see that he went absent with out leave soon after enlisting, but looks like he was in confinement?? twice ?? both look to be straight after arriving in south Africa and India??? but cant tell why?

Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

Edited 3 February by PaulGrattidge

[CorporalPunishment]

The group photo has a mixture of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, Gordon Highlanders and Cameronians (Scottish Rifles).      Pete.

[Bob Davies]

1 hour ago, PaulGrattidge said:

I can see that he went absent with out leave soon after enlisting, but looks like he was in confinement?? twice ?? both look to be straight after arriving in south Africa and India??? but cant tell why?

'Fraudulent Enlistment

sentenced to 56 days'

 

 

'In confinement awaiting trial

tried and convicted by RCM (Edit here; I am sure that means Regimental Court Marshal) if I am wrong someone else will spot it and tell us.

Convicted of Drunkenness

and sentenced to 21 days detention.'

There is a post about fraudulent Enlistment here;

I hope that fills in what you cannot decipher.

@FROGSMILE will enjoy viewing these uniforms and tell you some very useful information, if I may call on your expertise please.

Regards, Bob.

Edited 3 February by Bob Davies
To add a bit

[FROGSMILE]

On 03/02/2024 at 22:30, Bob Davies said:

'Fraudulent Enlistment

sentenced to 56 days'

 

 

'In confinement awaiting trial

tried and convicted by RCM (Edit here; I am sure that means Regimental Court Marshal) if I am wrong someone else will spot it and tell us.

Convicted of Drunkenness

and sentenced to 21 days detention.'

There is a post about fraudulent Enlistment here;

I hope that fills in what you cannot decipher.

@FROGSMILE will enjoy viewing these uniforms and tell you some very useful information, if I may call on your expertise please.

Regards, Bob.

Photo 1.  Two Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in khaki drill and circa 1900 foreign service helmets with the regiment’s distinctive sporran nicknamed ‘the swinging six’ due to its six tassels.

Photo 2.  Also an Argyll and Sutherland Highlander with distinctive three rows of white dicing on his glengarry and wearing a white waist length drill order jacket from pre war barracks undress.

Photo 3.  Appears to be also probably an Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders soldier with family, going by his hose visible below the khaki kilt apron.  Note the standard jacket not yet cutaway to Scottish shape by his battalion tailor.

Photo 4.  Mixed group of soldiers in service dress from the Gordon Highlanders, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), the latter standing out with their black buttons and plain glengarry caps (actually a ‘special’, darker green than rifle green**).  They are wearing pre 1905 service dress and the Cameronian’s are still wearing their old pattern blackened badges indicating this photo was taken soon after the 2nd Boer War.  The old white on scarlet woven titles can be seen on one of the Gordon’s.

**it’s not well known that the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles) were allocated a darker and thus unique green for their uniform close to the turn of the century.

 

Edited 5 February by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

Thank you @FROGSMILE,

I notice that picture 3 has him wearing a SD Jacket without the rounded bottom corners.

We had a post on 'Postcards' a while back with reference to this.

I must find it and re read it.

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Bob Davies said:

Thank you @FROGSMILE,

I notice that picture 3 has him wearing a SD Jacket without the rounded bottom corners.

We had a post on 'Postcards' a while back with reference to this.

I must find it and re read it.

The jackets were all standard issue and had to be cutaway by unit or formation tailors Bob.  It wasn’t initially even formally sanctioned and efforts were made by military authorities to order it stopped (which were not observed).  It wasn’t until the post war recutting of SD patterns around 1922 that a preformed Scottish ‘pattern’ was at last issued.

[mancpal]

In photo 1 is William Wilson wearing (albeit rather high up) the ribbon of the QSA? I think he does have something above his left cuff, perhaps a good conduct chevron?

Simon

Edited 3 February by mancpal

[FROGSMILE]

On 03/02/2024 at 23:53, mancpal said:

In photo 1 is William Wilson wearing (albeit rather high up) the ribbon of the QSA?

Simon

Yes I believe so Simon.  Medal ribbons were originally worn that high up.  It was the 1900 and 1904 dress regulations for officers that laid down in detail how ribbons were then to be worn on uniform, which stipulated a lower position.  Presumably that was conveyed to other ranks via Army Council Instructions or similar.

Edited 5 February by FROGSMILE

[PaulGrattidge]

Excellent! thanks everyone this is a big help 😊

[TullochArd]

On 03/02/2024 at 19:33, PaulGrattidge said:

I think this one is in India Uniform?? (although taken in Edinburgh)

 

Now this is curious. A military photo boldly labelled "MIZPAH". Mizpah has religious/biblical/Masonic connections.  Any family clues PJ?

Edited 4 February by TullochArd

[rolt968]

I am not sure that MIZPAH necessarily has either religious or masonic signicance.

I think the derivation here is accurate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizpah_(emotional_bond) (Separation.)

There seem to have been times/dates  and places when it was in vogue. I ran across it on th back of  gravestone a couple of weeks ago. In this case it has been added to the photo by hand, Initially I thought that it meant separation by distance - he was serving overseas.

I think if you look at the whole composition of the picture it probably means separation by death. It does not mean that the photo was taken near to the time of death. I think that it has been compiled as a kind of memorial. Notice the wreath which has been added.

RM

[TullochArd]

12 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

I am not sure that MIZPAH necessarily has either religious or masonic signicance.

I think the derivation here is accurate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizpah_(emotional_bond) (Separation.)

There seem to have been times/dates  and places when it was in vogue. I ran across it on th back of  gravestone a couple of weeks ago. In this case it has been added to the photo by hand, Initially I thought that it meant separation by distance - he was serving overseas.

I think if you look at the whole composition of the picture it probably means separation by death. It does not mean that the photo was taken near to the time of death. I think that it has been compiled as a kind of memorial. Notice the wreath which has been added.

RM

That's a good logical explanation.  Separation - I like it.  I now also see an inverted horseshoe (luck and protection) shape to form the wreath.  Photo taken in Edinburgh ..... prior to posting overseas?

 

Edited 4 February by TullochArd

[rolt968]

I wouldn't necessarily associate the taking of the photo with it's use as part of the "memorial". It may have been a much loved photo possibly with a personal significance.

 

[PaulGrattidge]

On 03/02/2024 at 21:30, Bob Davies said:

'Fraudulent Enlistment

sentenced to 56 days'

 

 

'In confinement awaiting trial

tried and convicted by RCM (Edit here; I am sure that means Regimental Court Marshal) if I am wrong someone else will spot it and tell us.

Convicted of Drunkenness

and sentenced to 21 days detention.'

There is a post about fraudulent Enlistment here;

I hope that fills in what you cannot decipher.

@FROGSMILE will enjoy viewing these uniforms and tell you some very useful information, if I may call on your expertise please.

Regards, Bob.

Thanks for this, don't think I would ever have worked that out!

I had not noticed before but going from your comments I compared his age from enlistment to the census records I have got and yes he was just over 17 when enlisted.

Its amazing how none of these stories are known in our family, one of his daughters is still alive and looks forward to my updates, so thankyou

[PaulGrattidge]

On 03/02/2024 at 21:59, FROGSMILE said:

Photo 1.  Two Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders in khaki drill and circa 1900 foreign service helmets with the regiment’s distinctive sporran nicknamed ‘the swinging six’ due to its six tassels.

Photo 2.  Also an Argyll and Sutherland Highlander with distinctive three rows of white dicing on his glengarry and wearing a white waist length drill order jacket from pre war barracks undress.

Photo 3.  Appears to be also probably an Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders soldier with family, going by his hose visible below the khaki kilt apron.  Note the standard jacket not yet cutaway to Scottish shape by his battalion tailor.

Photo 4.  Mixed group of soldiers in service dress from the Gordon Highlanders, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and Cameronians (Scottish Rifles), the latter standing out with their black buttons and plain glengarry caps (actually a ‘special’, darker green than rifle green**).  They are wearing pre 1905 service dress and the Cameronian’s are still wearing their old pattern blackened badges indicating this photo was taken soon after the 2nd Boer War.  The old white on scarlet woven titles can be seen on one of the Gordon’s.

**it’s not well known that the Cameronian’s (Scottish Rifles) were allocated a darker and thus unique green for their uniform close to the turn of the century.

 

Many thanks,

Amazing to see some of these items in colour!!

Is there somewhere I can read more about the descriptions of the different uniforms and when they where worn? as not sure what a "drill order jacket from pre war barracks undress" means 😊

Thanks for helping with dating the photos, seems photo 4 caught me out, did not realise this was one of the early ones, do you know what they are sitting / standing in front of? looks like ladders?? . ThankYou

[TullochArd]

12 minutes ago, PaulGrattidge said:

....... do you know what they are sitting / standing in front of? looks like ladders??

I believe we are looking at troopship companionway ladders Paul.  Designed and placed to permit a large number of people to access another area of the ship at short notice.

Edited 5 February by TullochArd

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/02/2024 at 19:42, PaulGrattidge said:

Many thanks,

Amazing to see some of these items in colour!!

Is there somewhere I can read more about the descriptions of the different uniforms and when they where worn? as not sure what a "drill order jacket from pre war barracks undress" means 😊

Thanks for helping with dating the photos, seems photo 4 caught me out, did not realise this was one of the early ones, do you know what they are sitting / standing in front of? looks like ladders?? . ThankYou

Yes they are ships companionway steps with typical rope type hand rails.

The white waist length jackets were known as drill jackets and issued only to ‘highlanders’ regiments, the HLI, and Foot Guards.  They were a form of undress (day-to-day working dress) and used for barracks duties, including guard duty in Summer, but primarily for practising ceremonial drill in preparation for public duties at Royal Palaces in Scotland and London.  They must have been an absolute nightmare to keep clean.  The Guards were wearing them as early as the 1840s.  They shouldn’t be conflated with white garments used for a long time by regimental bands (but not drummers). 

Edited 7 March by FROGSMILE

[PaulGrattidge]

21 hours ago, rolt968 said:

I am not sure that MIZPAH necessarily has either religious or masonic signicance.

I think the derivation here is accurate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizpah_(emotional_bond) (Separation.)

There seem to have been times/dates  and places when it was in vogue. I ran across it on th back of  gravestone a couple of weeks ago. In this case it has been added to the photo by hand, Initially I thought that it meant separation by distance - he was serving overseas.

I think if you look at the whole composition of the picture it probably means separation by death. It does not mean that the photo was taken near to the time of death. I think that it has been compiled as a kind of memorial. Notice the wreath which has been added.

RM

Thanks very interesting,

I also Googled Mizpah some time ago and came to the conclusion it was a way of saying 'missing you' , his service record list him as Presbyterianism, and I don't think they were any more religious than others of the time and I am not aware of any Masonic links.

Separation by death is interesting though , I had not thought of that as John survived the war but committed suicide in 1932 leaving a young family. Its possible he struggled after the war as we have poems he wrote which seems he was left bitter by the experience.

I agree its probably a composition made with an old photo, I am not aware of a link with Edinburgh yet (they lived in Glasgow) I will do some digging on the photographer to see if it leads me anywhere

Many Thanks

 

[PaulGrattidge]

10 minutes ago, TullochArd said:

I believe we are looking at troopship companionway ladders Paul.  Designed and placed to permit a large number of people to access another area of the ship at short notice.

Excellent thanks, I will do some digging to see if I can place the Gordon Highlanders, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) together when he was coming or going on any of his tours 😊

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The white waist length jackets were known as drill jackets and issued only to highland regiments, the HLI, and Foot Guards.  They were a form of undress (day-to-day working dress) and used for barracks duties, including guard duty in Summer, but primarily for practising ceremonial drill in preparation for public duties at Royal Palaces in Scotland and London. 

Great Thanks 😊

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, PaulGrattidge said:

Excellent thanks, I will do some digging to see if I can place the Gordon Highlanders, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and Cameronians (Scottish Rifles) together when he was coming or going on any of his tours 😊

Great Thanks 😊

The HLI were also technically a highland regiment, but uniquely for that category of infantry wore trews (until 1948) and so were listed separately in order to cover their dress differences.

Edited 5 February by FROGSMILE

[TullochArd]

6 hours ago, PaulGrattidge said:

Thanks for this, don't think I would ever have worked that out!

I had not noticed before but going from your comments I compared his age from enlistment to the census records I have got and yes he was just over 17 when enlisted.

Its amazing how none of these stories are known in our family, one of his daughters is still alive and looks forward to my updates, so thankyou

Fraudulent Enlistment: First offence imprisonment; second penal servitude

Fraudulent enlistment - Other Great War Chat - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum (greatwarforum.org)

Military crimes 1914-1918 British Army - The Long, Long Trail (longlongtrail.co.uk)

 

 

[PaulGrattidge]

On 03/02/2024 at 22:53, mancpal said:

In photo 1 is William Wilson wearing (albeit rather high up) the ribbon of the QSA? I think he does have something above his left cuff, perhaps a good conduct chevron?

Simon

Thanks,

So William must have served in the Boer war (If I have googled QSA correctly! Queens South Africa Medal), John did not get there till after the end of the war.

I tried to find William as I believe they did all their service together but there where multiple William Wilson's to chose from. So anything will help.

Thanks!

[Bob Davies]

8 hours ago, PaulGrattidge said:

Thanks for this, don't think I would ever have worked that out!

I had not noticed before but going from your comments I compared his age from enlistment to the census records I have got and yes he was just over 17 when enlisted.

Its amazing how none of these stories are known in our family, one of his daughters is still alive and looks forward to my updates, so thankyou

It surprised me when I read it, so I had to look it up, hence the link about it.

There is an 'Anglo Boer War' site on the web, possibly you may find something on that?

That is from where the Queens South Africa Medals were awarded, you probably know that.

On 03/02/2024 at 22:35, FROGSMILE said:

The jackets were all standard issue and had to be cutaway by unit or formation tailors Bob.  It wasn’t initially even formally sanctioned and efforts were made by military authorities to order it stopped (which were not observed).  It wasn’t until the post war recutting of SD patterns around 1922 that a preformed Scottish ‘pattern’ was at last issued.

Thank you FROGSMILE, that throws new light on that for me.

Regards, Bob.

 

[FROGSMILE]

On 05/02/2024 at 22:03, Bob Davies said:

Thank you FROGSMILE, that throws new light on that for me.

Regards, Bob.

 

It was all a bit foolish of the authorities really given that previous scarlet frocks had long been issued in that cutaway style and officers had their own SD cut similarly from 1902.  As usual it was an attempt at standardisation, and no doubt intended to save money.

NB.  There was a logic to it.  The cutaway existed purely to facilitate sporrans.  These latter were not to be issued with drab khaki service dress and so the authorities concluded, not unreasonably, that the cutaways were no longer necessary.  They hadn’t accounted for national sensibilities!

Edited 9 February by FROGSMILE

[Bob Davies]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

It was all a bit foolish of the authorities really given that previous scarlet frocks had long been issued in that cutaway style and officers had their own SD cut similarly from 1902.  As usual it was an attempt at standardisation, and no doubt intended to save money.

One thing, it kept the unit or formation tailors in a job.

I imagine every regiment had a number of them, though I can't imagine how they would be set up/organised.