Bagdad 1917 - “CAPTURED GUN ON DÉCAUVILLE RAILWAY”

[Holger Kotthaus]

Bagdad 1917 - “CAPTURED GUN ON DÉCAUVILLE RAILWAY”

 

Originally on the search for captured guns from the “SMS Breslau”, I came across these very interesting pictures that

are kindly online available. Of course, there raised a lot of questions.

 

(So this post would actually belong to here: Armament of the "SMS Breslau / Midilli"

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/306107-armament-of-the-sms-breslau-midilli/page/2/

German Artillery Battery for coastal defense at Ajar on the Syrian cost?

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/306643-german-artillery-battery-for-coastal-defense-at-ajar-on-the-syrian-cost/

However, the location at Baghdad is so specific that it is probably better placed here.)

 

The following British photos appear to have been taken shortly after the capture of Baghdad on 11. March 1917.

Original Source: Photograph album of Capt. W. Harold Morgan: Mesopotamia - Page 33 / 39

https://oxford.omeka.net/s/ww1lit/item/60842#?c=&m=&s=&cv=&xywh=-119%2C-60%2C1837%2C1199

 

 

WHAT IS KNOWN:

Map with Baghdad on the Tigris River to Ramadi at the Euphrates River.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Euphrates_from_Ramadi_to_Baghdad_1917.jpg

 

“The Battle of the Diyala River” by Cpt. Oswald Austin Reid, VC, Loyal North Lancashire Regiment.

https://radleyarchive.blog/commemorating-the-fallen-of-ww1-winning-the-victoria-cross/

 

On this map is pictured the old and new route of the “Décauville Railway” Bagdad–Mufraz, March 1917.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldbahnen_von_Bagdad#/media/Datei:To_illustrate_operations_resulting_in_the_capture_of_Baghdad_on_11th_March_1917.jpg

 

 

“CAPTURED GUN ON DÉCAUVILLE RAILWAY”

The top photo enlargement is of course of particular interest to me. Even if it was not a gun type of “SMS Breslau”,

I suspect based on contour and proportions (compared to the 600mm Décauville rails) a 10.5-cm Q.F. Krupp gun.

The large barrel length and the mounting / carriage on the railway lorry, rule out a standard Turkish field gun type.

 

 

Two other Turkish sources confirmed also the presence of two 10.5 cm guns at Baghdad, albeit on artillery barges.

Original Source, page 56 (Typo; - Baghdad was occupied already on 11. March 1917)
https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/page/n3/mode/2up

 

"TURKISH NAVAL OPERATION IN 1917 - J. IRAQ FRONT:

Following the continuation of the withdrawal, the British entered Baghdad on 11. March. The 13th and 18th Corps

arrived in Samarra. The Euphrates flotilla, which passed the Nağra and Hindiye waterfalls with great difficulty,

joined the Euphrates Group in Fallujah on March 17. This flotilla, "Ganimet" and steamboats no. 2, and 105 mm.

It consisted of two pontoons carrying two cannons. While the Euphrates Group was retreating to Remadiye two

days later, the said flotilla inflicted heavy losses on two enemy cavalry divisions.  When the flotilla ran out of coal, it

was towed by the ships' personnel and British prisoners and reached the Euphrates Group in Remadiye on 21. March.

Meanwhile, the Basra Commodore was located in Hit. On  27. March the Euphrates flotilla withdrew to El'uze, having

run out of artillery ammunition, and the Turkish forces were 10 kilometers north of Samarra in late April."

Original Source: Turkey in the First World War; - Naval operations, Page 375 / 376 (translated by copy & past.)
https://www.msb.gov.tr/Content/Upload/Docs/askeritariharsiv/112-Birinci_Dunya_Harbinde_Turk_Deniz_Harekati.pdf

 

 

QUESTIONS:

1.)   What Turkish artillery units with 10.5 cm were there in the defense of Baghdad?

2.)   Were members of the German Navy-Sonderkommando (SoKo) spring 1917 near Baghdad

3.)   Are there any other textual or photographic references in British sources? 

 

Regards Holger

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 25 January by Holger Kotthaus
details edit

[stevenbecker]

Holgar,

I don't know if of any Interest but Wigeon lists throw up another gem which may fall into this area

While I have no details on these men, they do show the unit but not what weapons they had other then Guns you were after

Batterie Dschemal Pascha (battery jemal pasha)

 

PS

I should also show these men

Striesow is shown by you earlier

shown as River gunboat "A" "B" and "C" They mostly served only as tugs for the gun lighters (Geschützleichler) "Falke" 10.5-centimeter quick-loading guns at Dscherablus or Jerablus (not identified)?

 

Edited 31 January by stevenbecker

[domsim]

Jerablus is on the Euphrates right on the border between Syria & Turkey-it has a major archaeological site with the inner town in Turkey and the outer town in Syria. I worked at a site a bit further down river in the mid 1990s but we had accomodation in Jerablus-I walked down to the river and photoed the railway bridge built by the Germans just pre-WW1 and photoed the inner town from the roof of our house. This is the site Lawrence & Woolley were digging and keeping an eye on the German engineers. It is about 70 miles north-east of Aleppo.

 

Dom.

[Holger Kotthaus]

Hello Steven & Dom.

It was probably my mistake to open several topics on this "10,5-cm Guns" topic in the GWF.

Now it's a little more difficult to put all the different clues, questions and answers back together.

 

Let me first try to explain the various positions and names mentioned so far where 10,5-cm

Q.F. Guns were used. At least that I know of so far and to clear up any misunderstandings.

Here is an attempt to provide an overview of the different locations and theaters of war.

 

1. SEDDÜLBAHIR & SUANDERE BAY on the europen, northern part of Dardanelles.
“Harapkale-Battery” with two 10,5-cm Q.F. L/45 Guns. Positioned from October 1916 - 1920
“Suandere-North-Battery“ with three 10,5-cm Q.F. L/45 Guns. Positioned from 25. April 1915 - 1918 removed

2. MERSIN / Mersina - Turkish harbour on the Mediterranean
In German archive sources two 10.5-cm Q.F. Guns mentioned in autumn 1917 as protection for the sea flying station.

3. AYAS / Yumurtalık - Turkish harbour at the Bay of Iskenderun
In order to protect the strategically important railway connection north of the Bay of Iskenderun, the
"Djemal-Pasha Battery“ with four 10.5-cm Q.F. Guns was permanently installed in the harbor area,
east of the ... river, in October 1917. Mentioned in German and Turkish primary sources.

4. JARABLUS / Dscharābulus
At this point the Baghdad Railway crosses the Euphrates on a long bridge
Base and workshop for the Euphrates and Tigris river detachment of the SoKo. From 03/1916 to 09/1918

5. ANAH / Ana - Turkish settlement and military base on the Euphrates
After the last retreat battles of the Euphrates-River-Detachment, the last two 10.5-cm Q.F. Guns blown up on artillery barges of the Sonderkommando (SoKo).

6. BAGHDAD – Turkish Provincial capital on the Tigris River
During the British occupation of Baghdad on March 11, 1917, two 10.5-cm Q.F. L/45 Guns left on artillery barges
Furthermore, in my opinion, one 10.5-cm Q.F. Gun on the train carriage, in the top photo are pictured.

 

Regarding personnel additions; - I will come back to that later

Regards Holger

 

 

 

Edited 3 February by Holger Kotthaus

[Wigeon]

Not  a gun from Breslau, but slightly interesting all the same. Images courtesy US National Archives. 

[Wigeon]

Armament of ships , document dated Dec 16. Images courtesy US  National Archives.

[Holger Kotthaus]

10 hours ago, Wigeon said:

Not  a gun from Breslau, but slightly interesting all the same. Images courtesy US National Archives. 

 

 

Great; - Many thanks for posting.

I was aware of the existence of this source; - but I don't have access yet.

 

As you mentioned; - no 10.5-cm L/45 guns from the 'Midilli' (Ex: “SMS Breslau”); - but 10.5-cm Q.F. L/35 Guns of the `Torgud Reis´

(Ex: “SMS Weißenburg”).

 

On the first page, top left, the “Torgut Battery” is mentioned, named after the Turkish Pre-Dreadnought 'Torgud Reis'.

It and sister-ship 'Barbaros Hayreddin' were equipped, each with eight 10.5-cm Q.F. Krupp L/35 C/89 on M.P.L. C/1891.

Original Source: http://nek.istanbul.edu.tr:4444/ekos/FOTOGRAF/91124---0051.jpg

 

 

At the beginning of the war, both ships took part in transport tasks with troops and supplies between

Constantinople and the Dardanelles, as well as in combat operations by firing from the heavy 28 cm

Krupp ring cannons (four x L/40 and two x L/35).

 

These ships, which were 24 years old at the time, were too slow for a sea battle in open waters. Both

fired with heavy artillery, sometimes alternately, from their berths in Poyraz Bay across the peninsula

in ANZAC Bay. It turned out that there was hardly any need for medium artillery (eight x 10.5 cm and

eight x 8.8 cm S.K.). This was also the reason for giving these guns to the Dardanelles fortifications.

 

“22. August 1916; - There was now a permanent crew of 19 German personnel as well as 683 Ottomans, regular

crew and recruits on board, which was reduced to 629 in 1917. Towards the end of 1917, the 10.5 cm guns that

had just come on board were finally removed again and made available to the Euphrates River Detachment“

 

Your page from 27. December 1916 confirms that all 10.5-cm L/35 were dismantled at this time, as they are no longer listed in the inventory list.

 

Regards Holger

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 February by Holger Kotthaus

[Holger Kotthaus]

Now that the original, very limited topic has been a `little expanded´, here is an addition to the theme

about of 10.5-cm Q,F. Guns in Turkey & Middle East.

In addition to the L/45 & L/35 gun types, also L/40 Q.F. Guns with caliber of 10,5-cm were also used.

 

Four 10,5-cm Q.F. L/40 guns from the two Turkish torpedo cruisers “Peyk-i Şevket” and “Berk-i Satvet”.

Both ships were damaged during the fighting in 1915 and decommissioned, the guns were dismantled

and installed with the central naval mount at different positions at the Dardanelles coastal fortifications

and certainly also used in other theaters of war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyk-i_%C5%9Eevket-class_cruiser

 

The “Berk-i Satvet” was severely damaged by a Russian mine on the Bosphorus on 2. January 1915

and was only ready for use again in 1917 after extensive repairs.

Original Source:

The Ottoman Steam Navy 1828-1923, Edited & Translated by James Cooper, page 46

https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/page/n3/mode/2up

 

 

On 6. August 1915, the “Peyk-i Sevket” was torpedoed by the British submarine E11, but the ship was

towed away and repaired up to the mid of 1917. Also these 10.5-cm Q.F. L/40 guns were dismantled

and used for other defense purposes. There exists a photo of “Peyk-i Sevket” as a training ship without

main armament (10,5-cm Q.F. L/40 Guns), taken by the K.u.K. Steamer “Stella” in the spring of 1918.

Original Source:

The Ottoman Steam Navy 1828-1923, Edited & Translated by James Cooper, page 89

https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/page/n3/mode/2up

 

Where, when and how these 10.5 cm models were used between 1915 and 1918 cannot yet be determined.

 

Regards Holger

 

 

 

Edited 4 February by Holger Kotthaus