In WWI my grandfather apparently flew Sopwith Camels. Can I validate this?

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Sop With Camel said:

Would being in the Reserve have happened before he "served with colours"?

The 11th December 1915 was the day the Derby or Group Scheme  ended (although it was subsequently extended).  Men who had held back rushed to attest as they could not appeal to the Local Tribunal for exemption had they not done so. It is well recorded the recruiting offices were overwhelmed and many stayed open until midnight to get through the lists, in the end men were turned away at some offices.  The attestation date is shown as enlistment date as the men were officially in the Army and placed on the Army Reserve 'B'.  They were given an armlet, sent home and awaited mobilisation in their group which was determined by their age and marital status. Although records are few it appears the default was to appeal to the Local Tribunal for exemption from military service.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

His mobilisation date therefore was 118 days after his attestation, or Friday 7th April 1916. He appears therefore to have secured a conditional three month exemption.

1 hour ago, Sop With Camel said:

What is an 'extract from AFB/2079

Army Form B/2079 Discharge Certificate.

One feature of the Derby Scheme when it was subsequently analysed was the fact many of the attested recruits were in poor physical health and therefore classified as only fit for Home Service. The 2/10th Cyclist were a Home Service TF unit (at its peak there were 80,000 men in the Home Army) and were on coastal defence at Berwick for most of the war.  We can speculate that on mobilisation he was first posted to the 3rd(Reseve) Battalion HLI, found to be unfit for active service overseas and then transferred to the Royal Scots for service at home.

As for adjusting his age it has been discussed on here many times that at recruitment no proof of age was required and his declared age became his 'Army age'.  We don't know if it was deliberate or if it was the year he thought he was born.  One year would have made little material difference to his call up as in the link above, a single man born 1893 was in Group 5, 1892 Group 6.

As you are probably aware most of the Army Service records from the Great War were destroyed when the Luftwaffe bombed London in 1940

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/the-1940-fire-at-arnside-street/

They had been weeded prior to storage in any even but it is estimated only 2/5 of the records survived (the burned records)

If new to researching soldiers of the Great War we always recommend you study the Long Long Trail website.

 

[Sop With Camel]

4 hours ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

Quote

 

If he attested under the Derby Scheme he would have been placed on the army reserve and continued in his civilian occupation until mobilised.

This is from John Ewing, The Royal Scots 1914-1919:

 

Hi Neill, thank you so so much for that. I'm learning quite a lot about how to interpret what information I have regarding my gf's time in the army/navy.

Cheers,

Martin

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 24 January by Sop With Camel
I completely messed up this response to Neill!

[Sop With Camel]

3 hours ago, kenf48 said:

The 11th December 1915 was the day the Derby or Group Scheme  ended (although it was subsequently extended).  Men who had held back rushed to attest as they could not appeal to the Local Tribunal for exemption had they not done so. It is well recorded the recruiting offices were overwhelmed and many stayed open until midnight to get through the lists, in the end men were turned away at some offices.  The attestation date is shown as enlistment date as the men were officially in the Army and placed on the Army Reserve 'B'.  They were given an armlet, sent home and awaited mobilisation in their group which was determined by their age and marital status. Although records are few it appears the default was to appeal to the Local Tribunal for exemption from military service.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

His mobilisation date therefore was 118 days after his attestation, or Friday 7th April 1916. He appears therefore to have secured a conditional three month exemption.

Army Form B/2079 Discharge Certificate.

One feature of the Derby Scheme when it was subsequently analysed was the fact many of the attested recruits were in poor physical health and therefore classified as only fit for Home Service. The 2/10th Cyclist were a Home Service TF unit (at its peak there were 80,000 men in the Home Army) and were on coastal defence at Berwick for most of the war.  We can speculate that on mobilisation he was first posted to the 3rd(Reseve) Battalion HLI, found to be unfit for active service overseas and then transferred to the Royal Scots for service at home.

As for adjusting his age it has been discussed on here many times that at recruitment no proof of age was required and his declared age became his 'Army age'.  We don't know if it was deliberate or if it was the year he thought he was born.  One year would have made little material difference to his call up as in the link above, a single man born 1893 was in Group 5, 1892 Group 6.

As you are probably aware most of the Army Service records from the Great War were destroyed when the Luftwaffe bombed London in 1940

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/the-1940-fire-at-arnside-street/

They had been weeded prior to storage in any even but it is estimated only 2/5 of the records survived (the burned records)

If new to researching soldiers of the Great War we always recommend you study the Long Long Trail website.

 

Thank you for an extremely informative and helpful post kenf48! I had discovered the LLT website before but I struggle with digesting and navigating so I would never have discovered what I now know thanks to everyone here.

So "serving with Colours" basically covers my gf's time with (speculating) the HLI & the 2/10th RS bttn. Is Berwick in Scotland? I ask because when my gf married my gm in 1916 he put Malleny Camp Currie as his address?

If my gf was fit enough to be transfered from the 2/10th RS bttn to Howe bttn. in the RNVR or RND (I haven't a clue) I wonder why he didn't just try again for the HLI?

I wonder what may have kept him from staying in the HLI? I know it's only speculation but it's very interesting.

[KizmeRD]

After returning from Gallipoli the Royal Naval Division was transferred to the British Army to fight as infantry on the Western Front. Now under new management, the RND was officially retitled the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division and was in dire need of reinforcement to replenish battlefield casualties. It wouldn’t have been a case of Daniel ‘trying again’ for the HLI (by that stage in the war, you went where you were sent). The army simply took several thousand men, largely Tyneside miners and men from Scotland and drafted them for oversea service with the 63rd Division.

MB

[kenf48]

Near number sampling indicates he was posted to the 2/10 Royal Scots on the 7th December 1916.

The men around his number were, in fact posted from the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion oof the Royal Scots.

7 hours ago, Sop With Camel said:

So "serving with Colours" basically covers my gf's time with (speculating) the HLI & the 2/10th RS bttn. Is Berwick in Scotland?

Serving with the Colours means he was on active service, i.e. not in the Reserve. There were different Classes of Reserve (see LLT) but in effect they all meant the man was not in uniform but could be 'recalled to the Colours' at any time.

Berwick-upon-Tweed is in Northumberland and is the most northern town of England and dare I say quite beautiful and historic. It is right on the Scottish border, (we stay on a caravan site near there where a five minute walk takes us across an iron bridge to Scotland).  In Berwick there is a castle and barracks which until late in the 20th century was the Depot of the KOSB.  I don't know but my guess is the Headquarters of the 2/10th were also located at the barracks during the Great War.. It is, or was, a military town.  In addition there is North Berwick firmly in Scotland on the edge of the Firth of Forth.  My information came from the LLT which in turn came from Becke's Order of Battle.  I can however imagine their duties would take them to the Firth of Forth.

Prior to the war the Admiralty and the War Office had worked out a scheme whereby the Territorial cyclists and the RNVR were on 'coast watch' duties. A senior naval petty officer was in charge of certain locations. When war was declared this system was not adhered to, the RNVR were deployed elsewhere and the cyclists were left with many miles of  coast to patrol. 

There are many reasons why a man should be declared unfit for active service overseas. Apart from the diseases of poor development occasioned by the poverty of the industrial cities, e.g. rickets, bronchial disease, there was poor teeth, defective eyesight, flat feet etc. the list is by no means exhaustive.

We can suppose after a few months cycling in the fresh air on the coast, regular treatment through the medical officer and three square meals any of these conditions (apart perhaps from flat feet) could be dealt with. In 1917 the Military Service (Review of Exemptions) Act meant that many men previously considered unfit, or even previously wounded were reviewed and placed in a higher fitness category and posted on active service overseas.

One of the attractions of the Derby Scheme was, on attestation, a man could nominate a regiment or Corps. There was an affinity with the H.L.I. in Glasgow and that is probably why he nominated that regiment and was first posted there for basic training.

Once in the Army, all bets were off, and as noted above men were posted where most needed. We can only speculate but perhaps the Home Service units of the H.L.I. were full and therefore he was posted to the Royal Scots.  There was an attempt to ensure men from the regions were posted to sister regiments within the Commands.  By the time he was posted to the RND, as noted above any affinity with the H.L.I. was long gone.

 

[Sop With Camel]

14 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

After returning from Gallipoli the Royal Naval Division was transferred to the British Army to fight as infantry on the Western Front. Now under new management, the RND was officially retitled the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division and was in dire need of reinforcement to replenish battlefield casualties. It wouldn’t have been a case of Daniel ‘trying again’ for the HLI (by that stage in the war, you went where you were sent). The army simply took several thousand men, largely Tyneside miners and men from Scotland and drafted them for oversea service with the 63rd Division.

MB

Thank you kizmeRD for taking the time to explain this, it really makes sense and is a big help. I have a transcription of a letter home to my grandmother when my gf had been wounded. NOK ifn and all that. It mentions the 63rd RN Division so that has helped to tie it all in. I think he must have been hit from behind:

Edited 25 January by Sop With Camel

[KizmeRD]

2 hours ago, Sop With Camel said:

I think he must have been hit from behind:

Not necessarily hit from behind (my own GF had a similar GSW to the shoulder in WW1) - if the bullet passed through him, then the exit wound was invariably a lot larger and messier than the point of entry.

MB

[horatio2]

On 23/01/2024 at 14:09, Sop With Camel said:

The later photo of him is during his time aboard the HMS Canton. Is he still in the Navy?

@Sop With Camel, While reviewing this interesting topic I came across this earlier statement. I am not clear how this relates to Daniel MacCAULEY's service. Could you explain, please?

[KizmeRD]

Yes, please do complete the story. Did he perhaps serve in the Merchant Navy after WW1? Then join the Royal Navy again in 1939?

I gather he died in 1943 due to a quayside accident in Glasgow, however HMS Canton was by then out in India/Ceylon.

Michael

 

[Sop With Camel]

14 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Near number sampling indicates he was posted to the 2/10 Royal Scots on the 7th December 1916.

The men around his number were, in fact posted from the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion oof the Royal Scots.

Serving with the Colours means he was on active service, i.e. not in the Reserve. There were different Classes of Reserve (see LLT) but in effect they all meant the man was not in uniform but could be 'recalled to the Colours' at any time.

Berwick-upon-Tweed is in Northumberland and is the most northern town of England and dare I say quite beautiful and historic. It is right on the Scottish border, (we stay on a caravan site near there where a five minute walk takes us across an iron bridge to Scotland).  In Berwick there is a castle and barracks which until late in the 20th century was the Depot of the KOSB.  I don't know but my guess is the Headquarters of the 2/10th were also located at the barracks during the Great War.. It is, or was, a military town.  In addition there is North Berwick firmly in Scotland on the edge of the Firth of Forth.  My information came from the LLT which in turn came from Becke's Order of Battle.  I can however imagine their duties would take them to the Firth of Forth.

Prior to the war the Admiralty and the War Office had worked out a scheme whereby the Territorial cyclists and the RNVR were on 'coast watch' duties. A senior naval petty officer was in charge of certain locations. When war was declared this system was not adhered to, the RNVR were deployed elsewhere and the cyclists were left with many miles of  coast to patrol. 

There are many reasons why a man should be declared unfit for active service overseas. Apart from the diseases of poor development occasioned by the poverty of the industrial cities, e.g. rickets, bronchial disease, there was poor teeth, defective eyesight, flat feet etc. the list is by no means exhaustive.

We can suppose after a few months cycling in the fresh air on the coast, regular treatment through the medical officer and three square meals any of these conditions (apart perhaps from flat feet) could be dealt with. In 1917 the Military Service (Review of Exemptions) Act meant that many men previously considered unfit, or even previously wounded were reviewed and placed in a higher fitness category and posted on active service overseas.

One of the attractions of the Derby Scheme was, on attestation, a man could nominate a regiment or Corps. There was an affinity with the H.L.I. in Glasgow and that is probably why he nominated that regiment and was first posted there for basic training.

Once in the Army, all bets were off, and as noted above men were posted where most needed. We can only speculate but perhaps the Home Service units of the H.L.I. were full and therefore he was posted to the Royal Scots.  There was an attempt to ensure men from the regions were posted to sister regiments within the Commands.  By the time he was posted to the RND, as noted above any affinity with the H.L.I. was long gone.

 

Thank you for this excellent post kenf48. It's been brilliant reading all the posts and learning so much about the life of a soldier/sailor during WWI. I had no idea about all of this and after spending a year on Ancestry it's been a fabulous change. I feel it's easier to digest the info I've received here. Cheers, Martin

[horatio2]

15 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

I gather he died in 1943 due to a quayside accident in Glasgow

The OP says he died aged 47 so, born 1892, = died 1939.  Not much time for WW2 service.

[Sop With Camel]

3 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

Not necessarily hit from behind (my own GF had a similar GSW to the shoulder in WW1) - if the bullet passed through him, then the exit wound was invariably a lot larger and messier than the point of entry.

MB

Okay, I had googled the word "contusion" and it referred to the damage to the area that received the initial blow/bullet etc. That's why I presumed he had been hit from behind.

[horatio2]

1 minute ago, Sop With Camel said:

Okay, I had googled the word "contusion" and it referred to the damage to the area that received the initial blow/bullet etc. That's why I presumed he had been hit from behind.

Danger of getting into the weeds here and reading too much into the words used. Hit from in front or behind was equally painful and depended on which way he was facing (or bending down).

[Sop With Camel]

47 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

@Sop With Camel, While reviewing this interesting topic I came across this earlier statement. I am not clear how this relates to Daniel MacCAULEY's service. Could you explain, please?

Okay, my mistake with the maths. Born 1892, died 1943 so my gf was actually 49. I just realised that he died just over a year after his first son, who died in 1942 when his ship the S.S. Surrey took a torpedo near Panama.

I'm very curious about the 2nd out of the only 2 photos I have of my gf. I've always known it to be during his time on the Canton. If anyone can shed a light on the uniform I'd be very happy.

Edited 25 January by Sop With Camel

[Sop With Camel]

14 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Danger of getting into the weeds here and reading too much into the words used. Hit from in front or behind was equally painful and depended on which way he was facing (or bending down).

I gather that this incident was serious enough to take my gf right out of the war? I'm almost transported back as a fly on the shrapnel. I wish I knew where exactly it happened. Rouen is mentioned, so France. Somewhere.

[horatio2]

1 minute ago, Sop With Camel said:

I wish I knew where exactly it happened.

He was wounded in the RND action on Welsh Ridge on 30 December 1917. See the Divisional History pp.265 to 271 :-

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.523461/page/n319/mode/2up

[kenf48]

29 minutes ago, Sop With Camel said:

Okay, I had googled the word "contusion" and it referred to the damage to the area that received the initial blow/bullet etc. That's why I presumed he had been hit from behind.

As noted by @horatio2 danger of getting in the weeds.

The letter referred to is from the Record Office. The writer would have no personal knowledge of his injury but would have drawn the information from the records.  In the Great War the term ‘Gunshot Wound” or “GSW” was used to describe any penetrating wound whether by shot or shell, although not the bayonet.

For clarity a coding system of classification of wounds was used within the medical facilities receiving casualties.

[horatio2]

22 minutes ago, Sop With Camel said:

I gather that this incident was serious enough to take my gf right out of the war?

Not so. Although taken off-strength of the RND, he was fit enough to be transferred to the RNVR for Sea Service in September 1918. He spent the final five weeks of the war serving as an able seaman in HMS CRESCENT, a depot ship at Scapa Flow. 14 days of that time was spent undergoing Cells punishment for an unrecorded 'crime'.

 

 

Edited 25 January by horatio2

[Sop With Camel]

Thank you for guiding me out of the weeds @horatio2 & @kenf48.

I was saving my question about HMS Victory & HMS Crescent for later but I do thank you for your info. It helps me to read the record cards much better. I truly am blown away at the high quality of replies here. I was almost never going to reach out but am thankful I took the leap of faith.

 

[WhiteStarLine]

21 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

on Welsh Ridge on 30 December 1917

Welsh Ridge runs north-south and is reasonably clear in this January 1918 map.  Even the trenches have names such as Naval Reserve, Anson Support & Nelson Support.  They defended a 7km section running roughly to the north and curving around the ridge westwards.

By the way, @Sop With Camel I love your choice of forum name!

[horatio2]

To put a bit more meat on the bones:-

On discharge from hospital treatment on 20 March 1918 he as drafted to the RND Command Depot at at Perham Down, near Andover, Hants.(for recuperation and re-training). 

On 16 August 1918 he was drafted to the RND Regimental Depot at Salamanca Barracks, Aldershot. It was there that the decision was taken, month later to draft him to Sea Service at Portsmouth.

[Sop With Camel]

5 minutes ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Welsh Ridge runs north-south and is reasonably clear in this January 1918 map.  Even the trenches have names such as Naval Reserve, Anson Support & Nelson Support.  They defended a 7km section running roughly to the north and curving around the ridge westwards.

By the way, @Sop With Camel I love your choice of forum name!

 

Hi WhiteStarLine & thanks.

I spent 10 minutes googling like mad trying to put a pin on a map showing the location of Welsh Ridge only to fail and then return here to find your Trench Map! Thank you so much for that! I'm so happy with all the info in this thread. I'm going to have to go away and digest it all and document it down for future generations. No-one else in my family really cares & the last of the generation above me hangs on my dear aunt who is in her 90's. I hope to travel back home this year to talk to her and share all that I've discovered about our family. She was about 12 when her dad, my gf died.

[WhiteStarLine]

16 minutes ago, Sop With Camel said:

document it down for future generations.

That's about all you can do.  However, one day someone is going to read it and silently thank you for preserving the memory.  That's how history is passed down.  Fifty years ago a number of WW1 diggers shared memories with me but I was (shamefully) not all that interested.  I'm often astonished how well I can recall snippets now.  Persevere! 

[Sop With Camel]

47 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

To put a bit more meat on the bones:-

On discharge from hospital treatment on 20 March 1918 he as drafted to the RND Command Depot at at Perham Down, near Andover, Hants.(for recuperation and re-training). 

On 16 August 1918 he was drafted to the RND Regimental Depot at Salamanca Barracks, Aldershot. It was there that the decision was taken, month later to draft him to Sea Service at Portsmouth.

Thanks so much @horatio2! I spent 15 minutes looking at my gf's records trying to figure out where exactly I could see what you saw and finally I found it all. I'm so grateful for your help. I could never have dreamt that this information was obtainable and I certainly couldn't read the military code on the cards! But you have put it in plain English as well as adding further info which I really appreciate.

Am I correct in reading that my gf was admitted to 6 GH (General Hosp??) Roen on the 4th of Jan 1918? Then transferred to Queen Mary's Military Hosp in Whalley Lancaster on the 7th Jan 18?

Cheers, Martin

Edited 25 January by Sop With Camel

[horatio2]

4 hours ago, Sop With Camel said:

Am I correct in reading that my gf was admitted to 6 GH (General Hosp??) Roen on the 4th of Jan 1918? Then transferred to Queen Mary's Military Hosp in Whalley Lancaster on the 7th Jan 18?

Correct. The reports are a bit scattered so, for clarity, here is the timeline:-

From RND Base Depot, Calais, he joined Howe Battalion RND in the line at Gavrelle 9 Sep 17;  Fought with Howe Bn. RND at Passchendaele Oct-Nov 17;  Wounded at Welsh Ridge and to 149  Field Ambulance FA) 30 Dec 17;  To 56 Casualty Clearing Station (CCS) 2 Jan 18;  Admitted No, 6 Stationary Hospital (SH), Rouen, 4 Jan 18;  Invalided to UK per Military Hospital Ship ST ANDREW 6 Jan 18;  Admitted Queen Mary Hospital, Whalley, Lancashire, 7 Jan 18.

Do you have his Victory and British War Medals? He did claim them and they were issued to him under his RNVR Sea Service number: Palace Z/2492 (PZ/2492).