In WWI my grandfather apparently flew Sopwith Camels. Can I validate this?

[Sop With Camel]

Hello, I've been reading/lurking and have a healthy level of fear as I prepare my first post here.

My grandfather was gone before I was born. An accident with a derrick, on Queens Dock in Glasgow.

I have his records and understandably I have come here because I cannot understand properly what the records are telling me.

More so, I'm here now to ask whether or not it's possible to determine if there are any records available that would tell me more about how he came to fly a Sopwith Camel.  I only know this because in my late uncle's memoirs, my uncle mentions this but I have no further information.

My grandfather was born in Belfast in 1892 (he put 1893) and signed up in Govan, Glasgow in 1915. He was in the Royal Scots 2/10 cyclists then the RNVR.

I can't seem to find any information about his time with the Royal Scots but I have 2 separate records for his time in the navy. I guess the correct approach is to upload them here?

So as you can see I'm going to have a waterfall of questions but to start with it would be good to know how and where he learnt to fly?

Thank you,

Sop.

Edited 23 January by Sop With Camel

[horatio2]

It can be stated with certainty that he never flew anything during his service with the Royal Naval Division (June 1917 to September 1918) and on Sea Service RNVR (September 1918 to demob in May 1919). That just leaves his 14 months service in 2/10 Royal Scots (Cyclist) Bn. (April 1916 to June 1917) which, per Long Long Trail, "Formed in Linlithgow, September 1914. Moved to coastal defence at Berwick until April 1918." Or before his army time.

The 'Camel' tale all seems a bit unlikely.

[KizmeRD]

Seeing as the first Sopwith Camel didn’t roll off the production line before May 1917 (and got delivered straight to the Western Front), it’s unlikely that he flew in one whilst with the 2/10 Royal Scots (Cyclist) Bn. based at Berwick.

MB

[horatio2]

Good point. Setting aside the 'Camel', that still leaves us with the problem of when and where he might have qualified as a pilot. If the did so qualify, why was he not employed as such?

I am not convinced that he was ever a pilot.

[DavidOwen]

Have had a look at the Royal Aero Club Aviators' Certificates 1910 -1950 on Ancestry and Daniel does not feature.

[Waddell]

3 hours ago, Sop With Camel said:

 

More so, I'm here now to ask whether or not it's possible to determine if there are any records available that would tell me more about how he came to fly a Sopwith Camel.  I only know this because in my late uncle's memoirs, my uncle mentions this but I have no further information.

 

What exactly was mentioned in your later uncle's memoirs?  It could help,

Scott

Edited 23 January by Waddell

[Sop With Camel]

Hi all, thank so much for your posts. I had a look through my late uncle's memoirs and this is what he wrote:

 

Quote

... when he heard that my father had flown Sopwith Triplanes whilst serving with the Royal Navy Air Service ...

Thanks David for looking through those certificates. I appreciate it.

I seem to be missing his records from Dec 1915 to June 1917, where might I find this info? They didn't come up on the National Archives when I looked.

Edited 23 January by Sop With Camel

[KizmeRD]

The Sopwith triplane (not the Sopwith Camel) was a single seat aircraft, so that rules out him simply going up as an observer. But seeing as he would have required training to fly an aircraft and there’s no evidence that he ever served with the RNAS, I think we have to discount your late Uncle’s memoir note.

MB

[DavidOwen]

1 hour ago, Sop With Camel said:

Hi all, thank so much for your posts. I had a look through my late uncle's memoirs and this is what he wrote:

 

Could you expand on the quotation from your Uncle's memoirs so we can see the context in which that quotation sits please?

[Sop With Camel]

1 hour ago, DavidOwen said:

Could you expand on the quotation from your Uncle's memoirs so we can see the context in which that quotation sits please?

Yes, will do.

[horatio2]

The implication of the wording of that statement is that he was an RNAS Triplane pilot (he was not) but gives no clear indication of whence came this 'fact'.

His notional association with the RNAS Triplane (but definitely not as a pilot) could only have taken place between June 1916 (when Triplane Service trials began in France) and February to November 1917 (Triplane in operational service in France). This period covers his Royal Scots time and his first five months in the RND.

[KizmeRD]

James Norman Hall was the American writer of ‘Mutiny on the Bounty’ who spent many years living in Tahiti. He volunteered to serve with the Berkshire Regiment in 1915, then enlisted in the French army as a pilot and finally transferred over to the Americans.

MB

[Sop With Camel]

1 minute ago, KizmeRD said:

James Norman Hall was the American writer of ‘Mutiny on the Bounty’ who spent many years living in Tahiti. He volunteered to serve with the Berkshire Regiment in 1915, then enlisted in the French army as a pilot and finally transferred over to the Americans.

MB

Thanks for this, very interesting and I see the connections now.

[DavidOwen]

Would 376026 (or indeed 326026 if I have misread it) be re-issued to another Royal Scots soldier once Daniel had departed from there?

 

[Sop With Camel]

I just checked my grandparent's wedding certificate, they married in 1916 and see that in that year he was at Malleny Camp with the HLI.

These are the only photos I have of my granddad. The 2nd pic is a bit of a mystery and I have no idea what the uniform relates to. He died aged 47y.

Edited 23 January by Sop With Camel

[DavidOwen]

Curiouser and curiouser - no trace found of him re 3rd Bn HLI.

There was a Daniel McAuley of 1st Bn -  deserted April 1915 and (under a different number) a D McAuley of 2nd Bn. Also a D J Macauley again of 2nd Bn. [Images courtesy Ancestry]

 

None of these are guaranteed to be your ancestor.

Are there any children born during the war and if so what does it say on their birth certificate/s?

 

 

[Sop With Camel]

Quote

Are there any children born during the war and if so what does it say on their birth certificate/s?

Thank you David, Patrick Joseph born 1917. Died in WWII when his ship the S.S. Surrey was torpedoed by a German U-Boat.

[DavidOwen]

That confirms he was then 2/10 Bn Royal Scots and no longer HLI.

A mystery still to be solved...

 

[Sop With Camel]

I have a record of him on the 1901 Census of Ireland then nothing until he reappears in 1915 in Govan, Glasgow where he enlists with the HLI/Royal Scots (?), then marries my gran (also from Ireland) in 1916. Both have no record of their fathers so very hard to research. I'm just trying to get my head around his movements and until today I had no idea that there were navy personnel fighting alongside the army. I presume that's where my granddad was when he was wounded? One minute he's riding a bicycle then flying a triplane and getting seriously shot!

The later photo of him is during his time aboard the HMS Canton. Is he still in the Navy?

Edited 23 January by Sop With Camel

[Neill Gilhooley]

As an aside, some 'Home service men' were assigned various tasks as guards. For example Arthur Anderson (9th Royal Scots, 5th Scottish Provisional Battalion, 9th Royal Scots - there were a lot of transfers and postings at this time) and his mates found themselves working for the RNAS at Stannergate, launching aeroplanes, guarding hangers etc. I imagine some of these stories could be distorted over the years. 

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, Sop With Camel said:

I just checked my grandparent's wedding certificate, they married in 1916 and see that in that year he was at Malleny Camp with the HLI.

According to the Long Long Trail, the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion of the HLI moved to Malleny Camp from Portsmouth in May 1915, which is at least consistent with his stated location on his marriage in July 1916.

[DavidOwen]

2 hours ago, DavidOwen said:

Would 376026 (or indeed 326026 if I have misread it) be re-issued to another Royal Scots soldier once Daniel had departed from there?

 

Just bringing this back to everyone's attention to hopefully get an answer. This is because both those numbers lead to different men in different battalions of the Royal Scots.

[Neill Gilhooley]

376026 is consistent with 10th Royal Scots (TF renumbering 1917)

[Sop With Camel]

I have searched but cannot find my grandfather's army record.

The reference to my grandfather both "serving with colours" and being in the "army reserve" in the period from 11.12.1915 to 16.06,1917, can someone please break this down?

What is an 'extract from AFB/2079

Would being in the Reserve have happened before he "served with colours"?

How different would life be being a reservist vs "serving with colours"?

What might he have been doing in the HLI then the 2/10th Battn Royal Scots.

Were the 2/0th Royal Scots also based at Malleny Camp?

Was there any benefit in my grandfather taking 1 year off his birth year?

I'd be thrilled to stumble upon his Attestation papers but my searches draw blanks other than the Sea Service records.

So many questions....

Edited 24 January by Sop With Camel

[Neill Gilhooley]

If he attested under the Derby Scheme he would have been placed on the army reserve and continued in his civilian occupation until mobilised.

This is from John Ewing, The Royal Scots 1914-1919: