The Gridiron

[kelly]

Having just finished reading Stephen Chambers "Krithia" I noted several comments related to the Gridiron, having never heard of it can anyone update me on its location,  relevance, photos, units that may have served and fought there 

Thanks in advance

[Howard]

On this site,  it says "Worked hard until the early hours filling sand bags and digging in and were "Standing to" at 5 o clock. That Officer of ours only looks small but he has some backbone - he was over the top with us during the night helping with the Sand bags and camouflaging the Gun.

"Colne Post" is the name of our position - we are in about the middle of a sap 10 yards long running at right angles from the firing line and we cover the various craters across the gulley. The Cawley crater seems to stand out very prominently and we are only about 50 yards away."

Colne Post is findable in TrenchMapper.

Right click and choose Gallipoli then use Advanced Search for just Colne.

You can change maps in the lower left panel. The first 1:5,000 maps are the Şevki Paşa maps. These show craters.

Gridiron is reported close to Cawley’s crater in this thread.

Right click, choose Map ID Jump and use ma_003160. Colne Post is shown clearly on that map.

Howard

[kenf48]

12 hours ago, kelly said:

Having just finished reading Stephen Chambers "Krithia" I noted several comments related to the Gridiron, having never heard of it can anyone update me on its location,  relevance, photos, units that may have served and fought there 

Thanks in advance

The Gridiron was a Turkish trench on the East Side of Gully Ravine and was a feature in the area, as noted by Howard above, that was a centre for mining operations and contested by both sides.  This scan is from 'Gallipoli A Battlefield Guide' Taylor and Cupper 1989.  A source is not cited but the guide was published with a grant from the Australian War Memorial I haven't looked to see if it is on there.  It's a 'pocket guide' meant to go in the backpack hence the size. I tried to increase it but definition is lost. Gridiron is No.34 on the key marked by my arrow.

There are numerous reports in the 8th Corps Intelligence Reports of mines being exploded, usually with little damage and few casualties.

The NZ history website has a general account but I can't find the link at present. The British sent 254 Tunnelling Company to reinforce the improvised units but they arrived too late in December to have any effect.  I did find this on a Google search https://www.coalandcommunity.com/tunneling-in-gallipoli.php

I don't know if this is of interest to @Howard and his project but 8th Corps issued an order in October that until all names were authorised units were only to refer to the map square (we know mapping on the Peninsula was problematic from the beginning).  They published the list in the War Diary, unfortunately Gridiron does not appear to be named (or I can't see it) although it was being referred to as late as the 4th December when a Turkish mine was exploded prematurely, followed shortly after by the detonation of an Allied mine. There were extensive counter mining operations.

The list from 8th Corps War diary Courtesy of Ancestry:-

 

 

 

[Howard]

10 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

I don't know if this is of interest to @Howard and his project but 8th Corps issued an order in October that until all names were authorised units were only to refer to the map square (we know mapping on the Peninsula was problematic from the beginning). 

 

All the named points we show in TrenchMapper were taken from our georeferenced maps. This causes a problem sometimes as the geometric mapping accuracy varies enormously, meaning points may not be quite where they were or even the same map to map. That is why we put great store in the Şevki Paşa 1:5,000 maps, the geometry is the best available. It is then a matter of deciding which point belongs where by corroborating with other sources.

The scheme of referring to points by grid reference must have caused all sorts of grief as there are (were) a number of different grid systems, it depends on which map you look at.

If you can point me to an accessible higher resolution copy of the list above, I would be grateful.

Howard

[kenf48]

10 minutes ago, Howard said:

If you can point me to an accessible higher resolution copy of the list above, I would be grateful.

The scan is actual size and I don't know it's provenance other than shown.

The list and previous orders etc are in the 8th Corps General Staff War Diary (Piece 4724) Oct -Dec 1915 which is on Ancestry. The link is in my previous post (I reduced the size for the GWF)

for clarity this link takes you to the second page 

hth Ken

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60380/images/42871_625537_11715-00165?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=22202

 

 

 

[Howard]

21 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

The scan is actual size and I don't know it's provenance other than shown.

The list and previous orders etc are in the 8th Corps General Staff War Diary (Piece 4724) Oct -Dec 1915 which is on Ancestry. The link is in my previous post (I reduced the size for the GWF)

for clarity this link takes you to the second page 

hth Ken

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60380/images/42871_625537_11715-00165?ssrc=&backlabel=Return&pId=22202

 

 

 

Thank you for that. Sadly my Ancestry subs ran out a while ago.

Edit:- Found it!. Page 10 of this site. https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/RCDIG1011575/bundled/RCDIG1011575.pdf

Howard

Edited 15 January by Howard

[Howard]

Tidied up a bit.

Howard

[michaeldr]

14 hours ago, kelly said:

Having just finished reading Stephen Chambers "Krithia" I noted several comments related to the Gridiron, having never heard of it can anyone update me on its location, 

The first map is Number MD_023878 on the WFA & IWM's disc Mapping The Front: Gallipoli
The second map is a crop of the above showing The Grid Iron (at left centre). Turkish trenches are shown in Blue and Allied in Black.
There is no date for this map however it must be very late in the campaign

 

[Howard]

Odd, that map should be on TrenchMapper. It will be fixed.

It makes the Gridiron to be at 40.094332,26.211183.

Right click, choose Lat/Lon jump and use 40.094332,26.211183. But then, the (inaccurate) Gallipoli mapping problem strikes. On the Şevki Paşa 1:5,000 map, that place does not accord visually as being on the eastern side of the ravine as the map above, nor does that fit the current landscape. One is forced to interpolate. Despite the Şevki Paşa not fitting perfectly (watercourses move over 100 years), one can get close.

Here is the map above rotated north up to compare with the Şevki Paşa map and current topography. Use the fader top right in TrenchMapper.

Howard

Edited 15 January by Howard

[michaeldr]

12 minutes ago, Howard said:

Odd, that map should be on TrenchMapper. It will be fixed.

Glad to have helped

[kenf48]

Interesting, the Birdcage figures even more prominently in the mining/counter mining and tunnelling operations and the map shows just how close they were.  It also illustrates the saps pushed out from the main trench system on the Allied side.

As the miners were a 'scratch' lot my grandfather was a coal miner posted to the 2nd SWB.  I've often wondered if he was 'attached' to the tunnellers. I feel a project coming on!

Thanks Michael as you say must have been quite late on as the landings were planned using very old maps.

[Howard]

The Şevki Paşa maps show tunnels in the Anzac area, but I don't remember any shown down south. The colour differentiation is poor so are hard to see, but I have traced all the Gallipoli trenches and tunnels to make them clearer. Here is a fragment, allied tunnels in yellow, Ottoman in green.

Close is not the word!!! Just as on the WF, both sides tunnelled underneath each other. Antonio Sagona's book Anzac Battlefield shows photos of existing tunnel entrances, so much underground is still there and presumably are down south.

I do not know why the excellent Şevki Paşa team did not map the southern tunnels but his team was split into sections. Comparing the mapping quality between them shows that some teams were better than others- that maybe why.

Howard

[kenf48]

Thanks Howard this is proving very interesting!

[michaeldr]

39 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Interesting, the Birdcage figures even more prominently in the mining/counter mining and tunnelling operations and the map shows just how close they were.  It also illustrates the saps pushed out from the main trench system on the Allied side.

Ken,

It is worth noting that the Birdcage which you are looking at here is also known as the Eastern Birdcage (red arrow pointing down). There was another one, known as the  Western Birdcage, over on Gully Spur by trench J12 (red arrow pointing left) 

Apologies for the poor reproduction, but they are marked in barely visible pencil

EDIT to add NA ref WO95/4316

Edited 15 January by michaeldr
add NA file ref

[kenf48]

Noted thanks again!

[michaeldr]

17 hours ago, kelly said:

the Gridiron, having never heard of it can anyone update me on its location,  relevance, photos, units that may have served and fought there 

50 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

must have been quite late on

This seems to refer to the action when the Grid Iron (previously also known as the Turkish Grid Iron) was taken [from NA ref WO95/4316 = 8th Manchesters, 42nd Div]

[I regret that my scanner/printer is not doing colour today]

[Howard]

So that implies that Cawley's crater is the centre or right crater here.

This map fragment also shows an Allied cemetery in the centre.

Howard

[michaeldr]

17 minutes ago, Howard said:

This map fragment also shows an Allied cemetery in the centre.

This is a crop from the IWGC sketch map showing the cemeteries found on this part of the front, post-war. All those on Gully Spur (the sea-ward side of the gully) were first concentrated into Geoghegan's Bluff, and then at some point later the decision was made to concentrate that latter cemetery into Twelve Tree Copse

Edited 15 January by michaeldr

[Howard]

That is on TrenchMapper. Right click, choose Map ID jump with md_024088.

It is in the map list as Plan of Helles Area but with no scale. There is a minimalist key top left. In TM pan or zoom in small amounts or the map may change.

Normally, if you find a Mapping the Front DVD file you can use that in TrenchMapper. Right click, Map ID Jump, but leave off the ".jpg". TM IDs are all lower case.

Howard

Edited 15 January by Howard

[michaeldr]

The fork seen in the top-left-hand-corner of this map is where the nullah Keçideresi splits off towards the west* from Gully Ravin (Ziğindere) which continues north*
[*these directions are 'generalisations', as this map is not truly aligned N-S]

This junction is also seen on Howard's map. 

Both Keçideresi and Ziğindere can be seen on the two photographs below. Using them as reference points will guide you to the position of the Grid Iron and they will provide some idea of how the battlefield looks today at that point.
[The photographs are from an article by Ş. Murat Armutak in the magazine 'anafarta', issue No.11, summer 2021, page 29>] 

[Howard]

5 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

.... will guide you to the position of the Grid Iron and they will provide some idea of how the battlefield looks today at that point.

 

 

Don't forget the fader at the top right of the TrenchMapper screen to show the modern ground. You can also change the modern map base with the Layers icon top left.

Howard

[kelly]

On 14/01/2024 at 21:08, Howard said:

On this site,  it says "Worked hard until the early hours filling sand bags and digging in and were "Standing to" at 5 o clock. That Officer of ours only looks small but he has some backbone - he was over the top with us during the night helping with the Sand bags and camouflaging the Gun.

 

"Colne Post" is the name of our position - we are in about the middle of a sap 10 yards long running at right angles from the firing line and we cover the various craters across the gulley. The Cawley crater seems to stand out very prominently and we are only about 50 yards away."

 

Colne Post is findable in TrenchMapper.

 

Right click and choose Gallipoli then use Advanced Search for just Colne.

 

You can change maps in the lower left panel. The first 1:5,000 maps are the Şevki Paşa maps. These show craters.

Gridiron is reported close to Cawley’s crater in this thread.

 

Right click, choose Map ID Jump and use ma_003160. Colne Post is shown clearly on that map.

 

Howard

Howard, so very grateful for your help

 

Garry

[Howard]

Be very careful with Gallipoli maps. When I was georeferencing them for the TrenchMapper project, I was very surprised at the poor planimetry, the geometric accuracy. Even the best maps are not accurate. The best for planimetry are the Şevki Paşa 1:5,000 maps drawn immediately after the evacuation but even these are not up to the standard of Western Front maps; in some areas whole feature sets are missing but present on post war aerial photographs, so were there at survey time. To be fair, some British maps are marked as “Sketches”, ok to find one’s way around trenches, “second left after Burt’s Trench” but useless for artillery to shoot off the map as was routine on the Western Front and also useless for accurate georeferencing.

The result of this is the disappointing fit of most of the maps with modern mapping. One is forced back to the map reading skills learnt in the scouts, distance and bearing matched with observed features. It may never be possible to plot “exactly” where a point is, but a good starting approach is to fix local features that are still there and take distance and bearing from those GCPs’ Ground Control Points. Even that is a bit optimistic, during the georeferencing process, a lot of the Şevki Paşa maps had no GCPs available so were fitted edge to edge with adjacent sheets of known position.

Add to that the geological processes of erosion and disposition, natural features move especially gullies (gulleys??) and even more so, the coast line. It may be a spiritual act to stand on W Beach and think of the lads who did the same all those years ago. The trouble is, the beach has moved; not too far but….

Howard