Moonraker Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January Any thoughts about the marching depicted on this card? I have scores of cards showing troops marching at ease on Salisbury Plain away from the public eye, but these men do look particularly relaxed -or has the photographer caught them at an unfortunate moment? The soldiers in the middle have their rifles slung, those at the rear have them over their shoulders and those in front all over the place! The card has a Tidworth, January 1912 postmark and a message from Bert Breese that "we arrived safely in Tidworth about 8.30". It's addressed to brother Bill at "No 1 Back of Pawnshop", Goode Street, Hockley, Birmingham. I couldn't find a likely Herbert or Albert Breese from a rudimentary search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) Could it be Bernard Breese, 10557 of the Worcestershire Regiment? Enlisted 1907, 7/5, killed 1914. SDGW says from Birmingham. Cap badge could fit? Son of Alfred and Esther Breese, of 37A, Park Lane, Aston, Birmingham B c1889 Edited 2 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonraker Posted 2 January Author Share Posted 2 January The card is definitely signed "Bert" - another brother? I might guess that he was a regular, perhaps returning to Tidworth after Christmas leave. (Prewar Territorial arrivals and departures were confined to the camping season that usually ran from Whit to late August.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) Bernard had an older brother William (b1855) who was a jeweler earlier on. Cannot see him in 1911 census Might fit with pawnbroking but maybe I'm guilty of squeezing the facts to suit.... EDIT. Ignore this. I think I've quoted his father's brother!? Edited 2 January by charlie962 Correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 2 January Admin Share Posted 2 January (edited) 1 hour ago, charlie962 said: Bernard had an older brother William (b1855) who was a jeweler earlier on. Cannot see him in 1911 census Might fit with pawnbroking but maybe I'm guilty of squeezing the facts to suit.... Hockley is the Jewelry Quarter in Birmingham, well just north west of the city center. Jewelry and silversmithing has had a home here, for at least since the 1900s. Centered around Warstone Lane but spreading all around the area. 'Goode Street' is now 'Goode Avenue'. Top left middle of screen shot. Hockley Station bottom right middle of screenshot. Pawnbrokers shops were there in the 1980s so I would presume they would be there in the 1900s. So not beyond the wit of man. Screenshot is courtesy of National Library Scotland. Link to it here; https://maps.nls.uk/view/115633215 Edited 2 January by Bob Davies To add a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) The 3rd Bn Worcestershires were at Tidworth in Sept 1911 to (Sept) 1914 when they were due to move to Lichfield. Prior to this they were 3 years at Dover. Bernard Breese that I quoted earlier is on the 1911 Dover Census for 3rd Bn Worcestershires. So most reasonable to assume at Tidworth 1912 since still in his 7 years colour service period. But I cannot join the dots of a) brother Bill's address 1912. b) Bernard being known as Bertie. Can eg @FROGSMILE rule in or out the Worcesters cap badge for the photo? Edited 2 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 2 January Admin Share Posted 2 January 4th from left looks to have a good conduct stripe and two wound stripes? 5th from left has a good conduct stripe? If these mean anything to the date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) 5 minutes ago, charlie962 said: The 3rd Bn Worcestershires were at Tidworth in Sept 1911 to Sept 1914 when they moved from Lichfield. Prior to this they were 3 years at Dover. Bernard Breese that I quoted earlier is on the 1911 Dover Census for 3rd Bn Worcestershires. So most reasonable to assume at Tidworth 1912 since still in his 7 years colour service period. But I cannot join the dots of a) brother Bill's address 1912. b) Bernard being known as Bertie. Can eg @FROGSMILE rule in or out the Worcesters cap badge for the photo? It has the right look for the Worcestershire Regiment, but the image is blurred and the Cheshires, East Yorkshire and East Surrey regimental badges looked very similar from a distance. Edited 2 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January Thank you. The photo is of marching troops so most will be slightly blurred. Can @Moonraker get one or more of the clearer badges enlarged? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TullochArd Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) 22 minutes ago, Bob Davies said: 4th from left looks to have a good conduct stripe and two wound stripes? Incredible eyesight Bob ........ he also appears to be carrying a swagger stick. Could the possible Wounded Stripes be possibly Signallers Flags? Edited 2 January by TullochArd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) 5 minutes ago, TullochArd said: Incredible eyesight Bob ........ he also appears to be carrying a swagger stick. Signallers flags rather than wound stripes. A battalion on a route march in Britain, especially if prewar 1912?), wouldn’t be featuring 1916 wound stripes. Edited 2 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 2 January Admin Share Posted 2 January 11 minutes ago, TullochArd said: Incredible eyesight Bob ........ he also appears to be carrying a swagger stick. Could the possible Wounded Stripes be possibly Signallers Flags? Yes signalers flags, as wound stripes don't match to the date. Well spotted the signal flags @TullochArd 10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Signallers flags rather than wound stripes. A battalion on a route march in Britain, especially if prewar 1912?), wouldn’t be featuring 1916 wound stripes. Thank you FROGSMILE. The cap badge certainly looks like Worcesters to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January 25 minutes ago, Bob Davies said: Yes signalers flags, as wound stripes don't match to the date. Well spotted the signal flags @TullochArd Thank you FROGSMILE. The cap badge certainly looks like Worcesters to me. Yes it does Bob, but on a blurred image from a distance, as we are observing now, could you separate it from these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) My earlier post about William was incorrect. I'd jumped a generation. Sorry, my excuse is that I was on the move. Bernard Breese did have a brother two years older than him called Joseph William, who was killed with the 4th Worcesters in 1916 (service no 8702). Could this be Bill? I could not find a brother with first name William. I shall check out Joseph William Breese, who married in 1913. In 1911 he was a 24 year old labourer at a Cycle and Motor Tyre Manufacturer**, living with his parents. Edit, see below. Could this be Fort Dunlop, making a Hockley connection? Edited 2 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January 5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Yes it does Bob, but on a blurred image from a distance, as we are observing now, could you separate it from these? I couldn't find evidence of those Regiments at Tidworth Jan 1912 but that doesn't mean they didn't visit on a march from an outlying station? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) 3 minutes ago, charlie962 said: I couldn't find evidence of those Regiments at Tidworth Jan 1912 but that doesn't mean they didn't visit on a march from an outlying station? The circumstantial evidence, date and location, etc. makes the Worcestershire’s by far the more likely. We would need to know the location of the home service battalions of the other regiments over that same period to definitively rule them out. Edited 2 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) 6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: The circumstantial evidence, date and location, etc. makes the Worcestershire’s by far the more likely. We would need to know the location of the home service battalions of the other regiments over that same period to definitively rule them out. Is that given in the Army Lists? We do need to include stations at route march distance to be sure. And what about the use of the word shambles for the way they carry their rifles? Their feet are in step! Edited 2 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) Fort Dunlop was Hockley. That's probably where Joseph William was working 1911 ? Ah..wiki tells me Fort Dunlop wasn't built till 1916. But Dunlop were at Aston before this. Edited 2 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) 6 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Is that given in the Army Lists? We do need to include stations at route march distance to be sure. And what about the use of the word shambles fir the way they carry their rifles? Their feet are in step! “Stations/Distribution of the British Army” (both descriptions used) appeared regularly in the broadsheet newspapers and Gazettes (e.g. Edinburgh), I’m not sure about the Army Lists. They’re “marching at ease”, a legitimate command and could carry their rifles how they wished. Edited 2 January by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January Just now, FROGSMILE said: They’re “marching at ease”, a legitimate command and could carry their rifles how they wished. Presumably near the end of a hard march? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January 1 minute ago, charlie962 said: Presumably near the end of a hard march? Usually as soon as leaving conurbation and for as long as on an open country road. Each time entering a town or village the command would be given “March to attention”. Step would then be kept and rifles sloped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 2 January Admin Share Posted 2 January 24 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Yes it does Bob, but on a blurred image from a distance, as we are observing now, could you separate it from these? In all honesty FROGSMILE, not a chance. It would only be a guess. The Birmingham connection would steer me toward The Worcesters, but that is no certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January Just now, Bob Davies said: In all honesty FROGSMILE, not a chance. It would only be a guess. The Birmingham connection would steer me toward The Worcesters, but that is no certainty. It depends upon the stations of the other regiments’ battalions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January (edited) Joseph William Breese had attested to the Militia 5th Worcesters in 1907. I think he went later same year into Regular** Worcesters. His WW1 MIC etc show him as both 'JW Breese' and 'William J Breece'. Service number 8702. So I do think this is 'Bill'. I'll do a bit more checking. **Edit. It would make more sense if he was Special Reserve. That way he would be at a Birmingham address 1912. His number 8702 could have been issued for the Special Reserve, Worcesters, July 1911 for duration 6 years but then how is the gap 1907-11 covered? He landed France 27/8/14 with the 3rd Worcesters. His brother Bernard landed the day before with the 2nd Bn** ** Those battalions had actually landed a week or so earlier. Did the brothers go out on the same boat? Edited 2 January by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Bob Davies Posted 2 January Admin Share Posted 2 January (edited) 11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: It depends upon the stations of the other regiments’ battalions. 3rd Battalion Worcesters are at Tidworth 1912. Screen shot courtesy National Library Scotland. Edited 2 January by Bob Davies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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