jay dubaya Posted 10 January Share Posted 10 January (edited) On 08/01/2024 at 23:07, flashludders76 said: So Mansel Copse isn’t this one circled in red? That is without a doubt Mansel Copse circled in red. I'm ashamed to say I hadn't spotted that glaring mistake, nor the position of what is labled Devonshire Trench. I've amended the above image to show the correct position of the two locations and added a few more for clarity. The mistake may be a common one as it appears in print, twice, I can't own up to this one.. see below Edited 15 January by jay dubaya retraction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 11 January Author Share Posted 11 January 12 hours ago, jay dubaya said: That is without a doubt Mansel Copse circled in red. I'm ashamed to say I hadn't spotted that glaring mistake, nor the position of what is labled Devonshire Trench. I've amended the above image to show the correct position of the two locations and added a few more for clarity. The mistake may be a common one as it appears in print, twice, I can't own up to this one.. 'Somme' Peter Barton and 'Zero Hour Z Day (Vol 2)' Johnathan Porter I suppose the original producer of the photo made an error with labelling and it has been carried forward. There are no trenches visible in or around the copse though in the image…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 11 January Share Posted 11 January It seems the ground between Point A and the copse would not be visible, at least on this line of sight and remembering the foreshortening of the assumed 150mm lens. It looks like the track this side of the copse may have had an embankment, and that is visible along the dotted line. Later this became a trench- at least I am assuming it is not already one. If someone could find a date for the destruction of either Fricourt or Mametz Church or other notable buildings, it would serve to date the photograph, at least approximately. There is little destruction visible, so may be early 1916? I changed the line slightly; looking at Fricourt Church, about 24% of the apparent width of the copse shows to the left of the line so I adjusted the point on Caftet Wood accordingly. On the line, nothing the other side of the wood will be visbile. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 11 January Author Share Posted 11 January The picture has a date of what appears to be 25 Oct 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 11 January Share Posted 11 January I am still a little suspicious we have the wrong place. Some aspects fit; we are looking down a valley with the ground a little higher on the left and hidden ground behind the hill as the elevation map shows. The worry is the road or track running bottom left to top right in front of what we have labelled Mansel Copse- shown in green. The only road/track to run at that angle across the frame is close to the copse, the road along the valley should be roughly inline with the line of sight. Is the group of trees circled in purple the halt at Mametz as the maps shows? It does not all fit. If not Mansel Copse, where is it? I cannot find a photo of either Fricourt or Carnoy-Mametz church so am not convinced that what we see in the photos are churches. Is the building circled a church? "Typical" churches around were not white. Where is Mametz church tower in a village that shows no other damage- was the tower shot-off leaving the village undamaged? Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 15 January Share Posted 15 January Your suspicion is well founded Howard, you are correct and I can’t see the wood for the trees. I've definitely tripped myself up and tied myself in knots with the depth perception in the foreground and somewhat made a hash of my contribution to the thread, I appologise accordingly and retract my last post as totally inaccurate and false. I now have a copy of the panorama reproduced in ‘Somme’, underneath the annotated ‘Mansell Copse’ and on the original is ‘Wood F.11.c.4.4’ which ties in with Howard’s view. The date of the image is 22nd October 1915 and camera location given is 62D.F.8.c.0.6 - the 8 appears crossed through on the original. This location is wrong and Peter Barton's 'Somme’ amends this to F.18.c.0.6, but this is still incorrect - c.0.6 would put the road to the right of frame and not left. I believe the true location to be more like F.18.c.5.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 16 January Share Posted 16 January Well done. Interesting isn't it? The fore-shorting effect can be quite confusing. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 16 January Share Posted 16 January 3 hours ago, Howard said: Well done. Interesting isn't it? The fore-shorting effect can be quite confusing. Howard It certainly is interesting Howard, the distances between features on the panorama are confusing to say the least. Again I found myself drawing all over my laptop screen with a wipe clean marker… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 19 January Author Share Posted 19 January Good work chaps! Very interesting indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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