flashludders76 Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January I’m trying to locate where (on a modern map and trench map) these panoramic pictures are taken, which are supposedly of Mansell Copse. Any ideas please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January On the source of these, is there any indication of the time of day? If there is, we can work out the position of the sun from the shadows and get a direction of view. The arrows imply a website viewer. If son, can you post the URL? Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 2 January Author Share Posted 2 January The photos are presumably IWM, but hosted on “Fronts Lines & Trenches.” https://www.frontslinesandtrenches.org/panoramic-photos They do not have a date but are shown twice, once labelled Mansell Copse, and secondly labelled Mametz & Fricourt area. I have visited the area, but in these pictures there seems to be an extra ‘lump’ in between the forward/northern edge of the copse and the next tree line/embankment (Danube Trench area). I’ve marked the lump below. I know it’s been hordes of shells and 105 years of farming since the photograph was taken, but my OCD is fighting me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Regiano Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January Possibly from here? Looking NNE from the exit of the parking area for the Devonshire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 2 January Author Share Posted 2 January I was thinking a bit further South-East from there, in the vicinity of the Gordon Cemetery, due to the distinctive cutting in these pictures: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 2 January Author Share Posted 2 January I think I may have answered my own question! The panoramic photo could have been taken from the second line trench I’ve marked with small red arrows, below. I suspect the ‘extra’ lump is in fact just an area of cleared vegetation / wood on the northern edge of Mansel Copse and that it has simply grown back in the intervening years. That would make sense, as a sap / strong point would need a clear field of view of the enemy trenches opposite. It’s quite sad to see a contemporary photograph of the spot where the 9th Devons took so many casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January I wonder if the camera was at about 62d.F.18.c.64.87 in Caftet Wood. In those days it was more common to have longish lenses so the view would be back a little. It would have required an elevated position to see as far as is shown and Caftet Wood provides that height. Using Google Earth with vertical exaggeration set to maximum of 3, you can see the topography and fly around. Then compare what is visible in the photos with what is there now. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 2 January Author Share Posted 2 January Thanks Howard, that makes sense. Hopefully I’ll be back there in September, so will walk the ground and report back! 💪 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Regiano Posted 2 January Share Posted 2 January 3 hours ago, flashludders76 said: I was thinking a bit further South-East from there, in the vicinity of the Gordon Cemetery I originally thought that too but wasn't sure how easy it would be to catch that panoramic from there - the bit that covers the now disused railway building at the junction with the road to Mametz. But I don't know anything about photography! I think you might be right with your subsequent surmise. I know it is difficult to tell from old photos, especially panoramic, but that hillside seemed a lot steeper when I walked up it from Devonshire cemetery - or maybe that was my advancing years and 80 degrees temperature when I did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 2 January Author Share Posted 2 January Yes indeed! Well, close enough for government work.😂 Another interesting view of Mansel Copse (supposedly) can be found at IWM Q 43557. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 3 January Share Posted 3 January The first images posted are taken from Third Army Panorama 25, dated 10th October 1915, camera located at 62D.F.18.c.0.6. (good call Howard). The last image posted shows The Shrine in Mametz Cemetery top right of frame, Mansel Copse appears on the preceeeding frame, this image is taken from Third Army Panorama 26, also dated as above and camera located approx. 62D.F.17.d.5.7, Minden Post is almost central to these two locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteStarLine Posted 3 January Share Posted 3 January 3 hours ago, jay dubaya said: The first images posted are taken from Third Army Panorama 25, dated 10th October 1915 OK @jay dubaya, I am really, really impressed! How did you know that and is there a reference for panorama locations? Requests for their location come up every so often. The web site the OP cited has a great series of these panoramas and most of them are so evocative - very sharp images, peaceful setting of a place where tens or even hundreds of thousands had died or were about to die. Sobering, Bill Click image to expand - pin is jay's location. Live 3D can be browsed and panned / zoomed. Open link, then s l o w l y press the Ctrl key and drag the mouse upwards to tilt and side-to-side to rotate. I've made vertical exaggeration 3.25. image credits: Mapbox 3D imagery, Open Street Map, various contributors image credits: Mapbox 3D imagery, Open Street Map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 3 January Author Share Posted 3 January 6 hours ago, jay dubaya said: The first images posted are taken from Third Army Panorama 25, dated 10th October 1915, camera located at 62D.F.18.c.0.6. (good call Howard). The last image posted shows The Shrine in Mametz Cemetery top right of frame, Mansel Copse appears on the preceeeding frame, this image is taken from Third Army Panorama 26, also dated as above and camera located approx. 62D.F.17.d.5.7, Minden Post is almost central to these two locations. Good info! Where can I find the complete panoramas? The IWM and the other website I mentioned don’t appear to be complete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 5 January Share Posted 5 January After looking at the images again and those at the site posted above I realise I made a mistake, all the images are from Pan 26. I researched Mametz Halt some time ago and these images were of great use given their pre July 1916 date. The individual frames of Pan 26 can be found at the IWM - Q 43548 to Q 43568, I have stitched most of these together in MS PowerPoint for a zoomable and complete view. 6 frames from Pan 25 have been reproduced in Peter Barton's 'Somme' which includes the location and date stamped over frame 1 - unfortunately the image reference in the book is wrong and I'm yet to locate the original, the elevated position of Caftet Wood makes this panorama the better of the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 5 January Share Posted 5 January Here they are stitched in Photoshop, larger versions here. If you look at the topology on trench maps and Google Earth, you can place numerous features. In principle, you can trace "transits" and therefore track back to the camera position. Not so easy here, one would need a good ID on a trench (junction) and a prominent building like a church and hope they line up. A transit is where two features line up, as used in inshore marine navigation. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 5 January Share Posted 5 January This is very speculative. If the high building is the church in Fricourt, the topography works. Wood to the right of the building, high ground sloping down on left, copse in the right place. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 5 January Author Share Posted 5 January Great work chaps! There doesn’t seem to be much in the way of trench activity evident in/on Mansel Copse though, unless they were in the trees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 5 January Author Share Posted 5 January A picture from the Zero Hour Zero Day book (July 16 presumably), which shows the trenches there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 5 January Share Posted 5 January (edited) 13 hours ago, flashludders76 said: Great work chaps! There doesn’t seem to be much in the way of trench activity evident in/on Mansel Copse though, unless they were in the trees? The map I used shows trenches corrected to 25/4/1916 and only shows the British front line. I think you can just see that this side of the copse along with the two 90 degree bends also this side of the copse. There again I may be seeing too much here! I am fairly confident the camera was on or near Caftet Wood. The foreshortening effect of the long lens used is also quite marked, Fricourt looks quite close when it is (was!) almost 2 miles away. Howard Edited 6 January by Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 6 January Author Share Posted 6 January You’re definitely correct, and the foreshortening is very confusing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 6 January Share Posted 6 January If all this is right, a further marker would (may) be Bunny Wood behind Mametz Village. Ignoring the specialist aerial cameras of the period and also ignoring the Kodak Vest Pocket camera used by soldiers before they were banned in 1915, I assume these panoramas were taken by official photographers using possibly quarter plate (3.25” x 4.25”), or 5”x4” plate cameras. Half plate or even full plate cameras would have been very cumbersome. A “Standard lens” for such cameras has a focal length about the same as the diagonal so for quarter plate that is 5.35” with a field of view of 15 degrees or 6.4” with a field of view of about 13 degrees for the 5”x4”. This tallies with the reported field of view of other panoramas in the TrenchMapper collection, some with frames of 10 degree (full plate?). For panorama1, that gives a total field of view of about 60 -70 degrees. I have not found a positive ID for Mametz Church in panorama1 but working 10 degrees anti-clockwise from the Eastern edge of the village gives what looks like Bunny Wood on the horizon. This line of sight runs across a large building which may be the church. If this can be treated with confidence, then other features can be named. If !!! At this stage it is quite approximate. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 7 January Author Share Posted 7 January On 06/01/2024 at 10:52, Howard said: If all this is right, a further marker would (may) be Bunny Wood behind Mametz Village. Ignoring the specialist aerial cameras of the period and also ignoring the Kodak Vest Pocket camera used by soldiers before they were banned in 1915, I assume these panoramas were taken by official photographers using possibly quarter plate (3.25” x 4.25”), or 5”x4” plate cameras. Half plate or even full plate cameras would have been very cumbersome. A “Standard lens” for such cameras has a focal length about the same as the diagonal so for quarter plate that is 5.35” with a field of view of 15 degrees or 6.4” with a field of view of about 13 degrees for the 5”x4”. This tallies with the reported field of view of other panoramas in the TrenchMapper collection, some with frames of 10 degree (full plate?). For panorama1, that gives a total field of view of about 60 -70 degrees. I have not found a positive ID for Mametz Church in panorama1 but working 10 degrees anti-clockwise from the Eastern edge of the village gives what looks like Bunny Wood on the horizon. This line of sight runs across a large building which may be the church. If this can be treated with confidence, then other features can be named. If !!! At this stage it is quite approximate. Howard You said “But I don't know anything about photography!” Ha! I saw a photograph of the Sapper photographer at work with his camera; I’ll try to find it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Posted 7 January Share Posted 7 January Quote:- You said “But I don't know anything about photography!” Ha! Not guilty! I should have said above that the field of view for a lens is its diagonal whereas most people want to know its horizontal field of view. A 5"x 4" will therefore have a horizontal field of about 10 degrees with a standard lens. A good number of the panoramas in the TrenchMapper collection (not presented yet) have a view of about 10 degrees per frame. Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 8 January Share Posted 8 January (edited) My mistake... the images above are all Pan 25 and not Pan 26... it was glaringly obvious when I looked back at my notes. Camera location at Caftet Wood (Pan 25) and the road is on the left, on Pan 26 the road is to the right. Whilst I can find most, if not all the individually numbered frame images for both panoramas at the IWM, I cannot find the stitched together anotated final panoramas, the IWM search function lacks certain peramiters and the titling of items is somewhat confusing, there's hundreds of these anotated panoramas and nothing in their searchable title gives the location away, not even the date works when searching... There's little chance of Bunny Wood being seen in the panoramas given it's location is low down in the valley behind Mametz village, the trees marked on the skyline by Howard can only be Peake Woods SW of Contalmaison. Edited 15 January by jay dubaya retraction of images Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashludders76 Posted 8 January Author Share Posted 8 January 21 hours ago, jay dubaya said: My mistake... the images above are all Pan 25 and not Pan 26... it was glaringly obvious when I looked back at my notes. Camera location at Caftet Wood (Pan 25) and the road is on the left, on Pan 26 the road is to the right. Whilst I can find most, if not all the individually numbered frame images for both panoramas at the IWM, I cannot find the stitched together anotated final panoramas, the IWM search function lacks certain peramiters and the titling of items is somewhat confusing, there's hundreds of these anotated panoramas and nothing in their searchable title gives the location away, not even the date works when searching... There's little chance of Bunny Wood being seen in the panoramas given it's location is low down in the valley behind Mametz village, the trees marked on the skyline by Howard can only be Peake Woods SW of Contalmaison. above 2 images form part of Pan 25 above 2 images form part of Pan 26 - location of Gordon Cemetery would be centre bottom of last image. So Mansel Copse isn’t this one circled in red? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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