Air Defence Station Crystal Palace London

[FionaBam]

Does anyone have information about the Air Defence station at Crystal Palace, south London ? Established some time in WW1.

From Anerley Nostalgia Facebook group and from Crystal Palace Foundation  (CPF), I have these photos. Thanks to   knowledgeable forum member @FROGSMILE who advised that the first two are relatively rare views of  London’s first ever air defence station (a precursor to the blimps in much larger numbers during WW2). 

Today the CPF have provided me with  information about the 2 buildings shown in these photos . What we see are  the rear entrances to the Australia and New Zealand Houses that were constructed for the 1911 Empire Exhibition at the Crystal Palace- possibly the already large  rear entrances to the two Commonwealth countries' buildings  were enlarged further to  accommodate the balloons. 

The entire site of the Crystal Palace  and its grounds were taken over by the military and naval services for the duration of WW1 ( again in WW2 , the remains of the site following the fire in 1936 ). The   Royal Navy trained ratings using buildings in the Palace grounds,  the Royal Naval Air Service provided basic 2 week naval training for its pilots , and the RNVS were based here .

The colour photos - I shall update regards their original source .

The B& W photo shows a car race held in 1937 on a race track built  around the perimeter of the Crystal Palace grounds (excluding southern third which remained as the park area.) The two buildings are evident in the background .it is not known at what point they were demolished . Copywright CPF.

Also attached - 2 maps of the Crystal Palace site and a photo of some of the numerous additional  buildings constructed on the site  for the 1911 Empire Exhibition. Copywright Anerley Nostalgia  Facebook group. 

Edit- aerial view of Crystal Palace higher level train station showing a balloon right hand side at about 3 o'clock .copywright Historic England.date unknown.further edit -  Apologies that was  taken in WW2 .

 

Edited 31 December , 2023 by FionaBam
Add photos x 3 and correction

[crystalpalacefoundation]

rafweb.org shows that Henry Karslake Thorold (later Air Vice Marshal) served at the Crystal Palace Air Station in 1916

[FionaBam]

7 minutes ago, crystalpalacefoundation said:

served at the Crystal Palace Air Station

Oh brilliant  ! Good find CPF!( catch you later)

[KizmeRD]

There is a reference to the ‘Air Defence Station’ at Crystal Palace in Charles C. Turner’s book ‘Old Flying Days’…

It was not until October (1914) that I was asked by the Admiralty to call with a view to being used in the lighter-than-air department, and I was given a commission as Sub-Lieutenant R.N.V.R. attached R.N.A.S., and was sent to London's first air defence station at the Crystal Palace where a spherical balloon was sent up daily to a height enabling the observer to see above the fog and to look out for Zeppelins. The section was armed with Martinis adapted for explosive bullets. At Christmas the officer commanding that section was transferred to other duties, and I succeeded him. We had many alarms, and on one occasion were officially ‘in action’.

By May (1915) the absurdity of our anti-aircraft measures was apparent to all, and I was transferred to Roehampton to give instruction in kite-ballooning and to give lectures on the theory of ballooning to officers destined for kite balloon work or for airships. 

Note - the work of the RNVR Anti-aircraft Corps was quite independent to the work of the RNAS Airship Division (Crystal Palace Air Station), even though they were co-located for a brief period at the start of the war.

MB

 

 

 

[FionaBam]

11 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

RNAS Airship Division (Crystal Palace Air Station), even

Thank you Kizme. This is a fantastic find .

In your opinion, do the first 2 colour & sepia  photos above show the RNAS Airship Division ? Seems to me they do .

Cheers

Fiona 

[KizmeRD]

The first two photos are definitely not related to the 1914/15 ‘Air Defence Station’, which as C.C. Turner states used early (i.e. pre-‘Drachen’ design) spherical balloons - therefore the images can only be connected to the RNAS ground school.

PS Crystal Palace had a long association with the development of balloons and airships. The first modern high-altitude balloon test flight (flown by Henry Coxwell) took off from Crystal Palace in 1862 and Stanley Spencer (C.G.’s son) built the very first British powered airship there in his father’s workshop and flew it for the first time in 1902. Additionally, C.C. Turner also had significant pre-war involvement with Crystal Palace (as a pioneering balloonist).

MB

 

 

 

Edited 31 December , 2023 by KizmeRD

[FionaBam]

1 hour ago, KizmeRD said:

spherical balloons - therefore the images can only be connected to the RNAS ground school.

Thank you for explaining that for me . 

That's very interesting to hear about Crystal Palace 's pre - Ww1 air ballooning history .1862 wow! 

To think that on the same ground 114 years later I was learning to ride a motor bike . 

Cheers

Fiona 

[crystalpalacefoundation]

On 31/12/2023 at 14:42, KizmeRD said:

There is a reference to the ‘Air Defence Station’ at Crystal Palace in Charles C. Turner’s book ‘Old Flying Days’…

It was not until October (1914) that I was asked by the Admiralty to call with a view to being used in the lighter-than-air department, and I was given a commission as Sub-Lieutenant R.N.V.R. attached R.N.A.S., and was sent to London's first air defence station at the Crystal Palace where a spherical balloon was sent up daily to a height enabling the observer to see above the fog and to look out for Zeppelins. The section was armed with Martinis adapted for explosive bullets. At Christmas the officer commanding that section was transferred to other duties, and I succeeded him. We had many alarms, and on one occasion were officially ‘in action’.

By May (1915) the absurdity of our anti-aircraft measures was apparent to all, and I was transferred to Roehampton to give instruction in kite-ballooning and to give lectures on the theory of ballooning to officers destined for kite balloon work or for airships. 

Note - the work of the RNVR Anti-aircraft Corps was quite independent to the work of the RNAS Airship Division (Crystal Palace Air Station), even though they were co-located for a brief period at the start of the war.

MB

 

 

 

 

Edited 2 January by crystalpalacefoundation

[KizmeRD]

There was a naval unit known as the RNVR Anti-Aircraft Corp. (part-time volunteers) whose job it was to operate guns and searchlights for local area defence of London against Zeppelins. I believe that it was this unit that (during the opening months of the war) also operated the ‘Air Defence Station’ based at Crystal Palace, as described by Turner.

As far as I can ascertain, a tethered spherical observation balloon was flown at Crystal Palace between November 1914 and April 1915 and was primarily intended to provide visual warning of an approaching German Airship, however those going up in the basket were also armed with Martini carbines firing incendiary rounds in the somewhat optimistic expectation that a Zeppelin might graciously fly within their range (hence the ‘absurdity’ referred to by Turner).

The photo posted by Fiona clearly shows a (3rd Generation) Caquot type balloon, identifiable by its elongated streamlined appearance and the clearly visible tail-fin assembly. Such balloons only came into British service during the later part of the war, and were copies of a French design that provided superior stability in the air compared to earlier designs. 

Spherical observation balloons were used up until Spring 1915, but were small and impractical as they moved around so much, even in moderate winds. These were then replaced by German influenced ‘Drachen’ (Parseval) type balloons which being sausage-shaped (with a somewhat odd looking appendage) provided better stability, and were also able to be flown at greater height. These in turn were replaced by Caquot type balloons (which looked a lot like WW2 barrage balloons).

After the RND vacated Crystal Palace and moved to Blandford Camp, the site was repurposed as a new entry training depot for RNVR ratings, producing many signallers, telegraphists and DAMS gunners. I suspect that many an aspiring RNAS aircraftsman also did their basic training at Crystal Palace too. Additionally there was also a RNAS lighter-than-air ground school established at Crystal Palace, but I don’t believe that they flew operational airship missions from there (perhaps others know better?).

FYI see following examples of different generations of WW1 observation balloons…

MB

 

[crystalpalacefoundation]

Many thanks for your detailed response. Are your photographs of balloons at Crystal Palace or conversely do you have any more images of WW1 balloons at Crystal Palace?

The balloons are seen emerging from the back of the 1911 Festival of Empire Australia and New Zealand buildings.

Do you think then that the balloons are part of the RNVR Anti-Aircraft Corp or the RNAS lighter-than-air ground school and what date would you suggest the photographs are from?

Regards

Melvyn Harrison
Chairman
Crystal Palace Foundation
www.crystalpalacefoundation.org.uk

[KizmeRD]

The photos are purely examples of British WW1 observation balloon types. I don’t believe any of the photos were taken at Crystal Palace.

As you can see in all the photos however, the handling of these balloons required a great number of ground personnel, and perhaps some RNAS Aircrewmen received part of their training at the Crystal Palace ground school.

MB

PS I’m not entirely sure regarding the building that the balloon in the photo is emerging from — see photo below, which looks to me like the building that was being used (with more space out front). Perhaps they are one and the same? you tell me. (Photo curtesy of CPF photo collection, post-war motor racing).

Edit - After further appraisal, I’m now happy they are one and the same building.

Edited 3 January by KizmeRD

[FionaBam]

On 02/01/2024 at 19:16, KizmeRD said:

 

Edit - After further appraisal, I’m now happy they are one and the same building.

 

It took even Crystal Palace expert Melvyn a while to delve and find diagrams and other information to confirm what my  obviously prone to unreliability visual instincts had told me !

Below I have circled  in blue what had been  Canada House and  New Zealand House  in the 1911 Festival of Empire at the Palace . They shared a common dividing wall .

The photo of the car racing track was taken at least after 1937 - unfortunately there is apparently no date known. The race track opened post - CP fire in 1937 by which time the buildings had fallen into disrepair sadly and the trees left to grow ( good!). 

The 1911  diagram of the layout of the exhibition shows where  Canada House and New Zealand House were situated and if you can imagine the race track looping 

downwards  in a curve at the what looks like northern end of those buildings according to the perspective of the diagram, and the photo being taken from a point further " north" then you have it . Once enlarged you can see how the designs of both buildings matches up  with the distinctive window  and features of the building on the right . Inthe race track photo We are looking at the rear of these buildings.

 

 

Edited 4 January by FionaBam
Add text

[FROGSMILE]

A very interesting thread thanks to such knowledgeable contributors.  Now that we’ve established that the balloons emerging from the sheds are not the spherical type used for anti-zeppelin pot shots, but the type used by the lighter than air service, can MB clarify what the exact purpose of the latter was?  Was it just a training school in an aspiration for us (the RNAS) to develop our own zeppelin type airships? 

[KizmeRD]

Much of what I’ve been finding out recently isn’t at all well recorded in any book on the history of the RNAS and there are still many grey areas, however I’m fully certain about what’s written in paragraphs 1 & 2 below  - and further digging (probably requiring a visit to TNA) is still needed in order to flesh out paras 3 & 4

1. The only references to (London's first) ‘air defence station’  I’ve been able to find are purely in relation to the small RNAS Observation Balloon detachment that was based at Crystal Palace from November 1914 to May 1915. The purpose of this unit was to provide early warning to London (by visual means) of any imminent Zeppelin raid. - As written in C.C. Turner’s book ‘Old Flying Days’ (him being an eminent pre-war balloonist, wartime observation balloon pilot and instructor, and one of the two CO’s of the CP balloon detachment).

2. Ref. Admiralty Monthly Order 411 (1.6.1916)… an RNAS ground school was established at the RN depot Crystal Palace in May 1916. Initially it provided initial training to potential pilots (much like RFC Cadet training) - what they referred to at the time as ‘disciplinary courses’ (basically teaching candidates the responsibilities of becoming Commissioned RNAS Officers). These courses were run at CP until moving to RNC Greenwich sometime during the summer of 1917. And having dug as far as I can into the matter, I couldn’t find evidence of CP being used as an operational base for lighter-than-air activities (Air Station) - but in addition to the prospective pilot training, it was also being used as a training facility (‘boot camp’) for RNAS ratings (which earlier in the war had been undertaken at Sheerness - and which then moved to Tregantle & Withnoe in late 1917).

3. It would appear from photos that a few aeroplanes and lighter-than air craft (both balloons and airships) were kept at Crystal Palace Depot - most probably for training purposes (although I’ve also come across reference to an ‘aircraft storage facility’ at CP (more research or input from other Forum pals required!). In any case, I judge that the date of the photo in the original post can be no earlier than 1917, and there’s also a possibility that it could even be from the immediate post-Armistice period (as some sort of special exhibition was put on at CP). 

4. Of course RNAS training was going on at Crystal Palace Depot at the same time as, and in addition to, other (non-RNAS related) RNVR new entry training, as well as for specialist signals, W/T and DAMS gunnery courses.

MB

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

 

Much of what I’ve been finding out recently isn’t at all well recorded in any book on the history of the RNAS and there are still many grey areas, however I’m fully certain about what’s written in paragraphs 1 & 2 below  - and further digging (probably requiring a visit to TNA) is still needed in order to flesh out paras 3 & 4

1. The only references to (London's first) ‘air defence station’  I’ve been able to find are purely in relation to the small RNAS Observation Balloon detachment that was based at Crystal Palace from November 1914 to May 1915. The purpose of this unit was to provide early warning to London (by visual means) of any imminent Zeppelin raid. - As written in C.C. Turner’s book ‘Old Flying Days’ (him being an eminent pre-war balloonist, wartime observation balloon pilot and instructor, and one of the two CO’s of the CP balloon detachment).

2. Ref. Admiralty Monthly Order 411 (1.6.1916)… an RNAS ground school was established at the RN depot Crystal Palace in May 1916. Initially it provided initial training to potential pilots (much like RFC Cadet training) - what they referred to at the time as ‘disciplinary courses’ (basically teaching candidates the responsibilities of becoming Commissioned RNAS Officers). These courses were run at CP until moving to RNC Greenwich sometime during the summer of 1917. And having dug as far as I can into the matter, I couldn’t find evidence of CP being used as an operational base for lighter-than-air activities (Air Station) - but in addition to the prospective pilot training, it was also being used as a training facility (‘boot camp’) for RNAS ratings (which earlier in the war had been undertaken at Sheerness - and which then moved to Tregantle & Withnoe in late 1917).

3. It would appear from photos that a few aeroplanes and lighter-than air craft (both balloons and airships) were kept at Crystal Palace Depot - most probably for training purposes (although I’ve also come across reference to an ‘aircraft storage facility’ at CP (more research or input from other Forum pals required!). In any case, I judge that the date of the photo in the original post can be no earlier than 1917, and there’s also a possibility that it could even be from the immediate post-Armistice period (as some sort of special exhibition was put on at CP). 

4. Of course RNAS training was going on at Crystal Palace Depot at the same time as, and in addition to, other (non-RNAS related) RNVR new entry training, as well as for specialist signals, W/T and DAMS gunnery courses.

MB

Thanks MB.  So the short answer is that we don’t know.

[KizmeRD]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Was it just a training school in an aspiration for us (the RNAS) to develop our own zeppelin type airships? 

i think that Farnborough did most of the research and development work for the RNAS - Crystal Palace was just a training facility (and possibly an aircraft storage depot).

The British kite balloons were copies of the German Parseval design (‘Drachen’ - the German word for kite). And the ones resembling ‘barrage balloons’ were copies of French Caquots. Sorry, but I don’t know enough about British airship design other than to point out that German Zeppelins were framed airships, whereas the RNAS tended to favour non-rigid blimps.

MB

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

i think that Farnborough did most of the research and development work for the RNAS - Crystal Palace was just a training facility (and possibly an aircraft storage depot).

The British kite balloons were copies of the German Parseval design (‘Drachen’ - the German word for kite). And the ones resembling ‘barrage balloons’ were copies of French Caquots. Sorry, but I don’t know enough about British airship design other than to point out that German Zeppelins were framed airships, whereas the RNAS tended to favour non-rigid blimps.

MB

Thanks MB, it’s an interesting subject and there don’t seem to be enough surviving records to be fully clear on the definitive purpose of the blimp type balloons seen in the OP photos of the makeshift hangars at the CP.  If they were for training one would think we’d have heard more about them in other accounts. 

Edited 4 January by FROGSMILE

[KizmeRD]

The Imperial War Museum opened its first 'permanent' exhibition at Crystal Palace on 9 June 1920, after three years of temporary exhibitions and scattered storage. The IWM collection then moved to Kensington in 1924, until finally settling at its present day site in Lambeth Road in 1936.

See image below, which looks a lot like the balloon depicted in the OP.

MB

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

The Imperial War Museum opened its first 'permanent' exhibition at Crystal Palace on 9 June 1920, after three years of temporary exhibitions and scattered storage. The IWM collection then moved to Kensington in 1924, until finally settling at its present day site in Lambeth Road in 1936.

See image below, which looks a lot like the balloon depicted in the OP.

MB

Yes it does.  It’s not a stretch of the imagination to think that perhaps a RNAS training balloon went straight from the hangars shown in the opening post to the arched glass display area of the then embryo IWM seen above. 

[FionaBam]

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

then embryo IWM seen above

I think that photo posted by @KizmeRD is a shot of the exhibition hall inside the Crystal Palace.  The way the flags are displayed plus those fronds of a large plant bottom right are 100% reminiscent of photos I have seen of the War Dept exhibition Hall at the Palace post WW1.

@crystalpalacefoundation

But have I misinterpreted what you are saying Frogsmile,?

Edit

am searching my downloaded photos from Anerley And District Nostalgia Facebook group. Here is one view of the exhibition Hall inside the Palace. Will find one of flags plus plants plus guns . Maybe tomorrow.....

Edited 5 January by FionaBam

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, FionaBam said:

I think that photo posted by @KizmeRD is a shot of the exhibition hall inside the Crystal Palace.  The way the flags are displayed plus those fronds of a large plant bottom right are 100% reminiscent of photos I have seen of the War Dept exhibition Hall at the Palace post WW1.

@crystalpalacefoundation

But have I misinterpreted what you are saying Frogsmile,?

Edit

am searching my downloaded photos from Anerley And District Nostalgia Facebook group. Here is one view of the exhibition Hall inside the Palace. Will find one of flags plus plants plus guns . Maybe tomorrow.....

Thanks Fiona.  I thought that MB was suggesting the photo of the blimp to be when that hall was used for the early display of the Imperial War Museum’s early collection before it moved to Lambeth. 

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Fiona.  I thought that MB was suggesting the photo of the blimp to be when that hall was used for the early display of the Imperial War Museum’s early collection before it moved to Lambeth. 

I am sorry , you could have been right ! The Imperial War Museum  exhibited at the Crystal Palace from 1920 till 1924. When they then moved everything to Lambeth in 1924 they may well have exhibited items in the same way using what could have been their own flags ; not so sure about who  those huge plants belonged to!

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, FionaBam said:

I am sorry , you could have been right ! The Imperial War Museum  exhibited at the Crystal Palace from 1920 till 1924. When they then moved everything to Lambeth in 1924 they may well have exhibited items in the same way using what could have been their own flags ; not so sure about who  those huge plants belonged to!

Yes it’s maybe unclear what exactly the display relates to.  It just occurred to me with what MB said that the blimp in your photo might just have been moved next door to the embryo IWM if it had perhaps been in storage there since the end of the war.  However, that’s pure speculation and the two images might just represent a coincidence.

Edited 5 January by FROGSMILE

[FionaBam]

This publication might be good for anyone keen to study the Royal Navy Division at the Crystal Palace . It covers a lot more than  the RND solely at the Crystal Palace-  including Gallipoli and the western front 

http://www.crystalpalacefoundation.org.uk/shop/world-war-1-iwm-the-gt-victory-exhibition/royal-naval-division-w-i-a-d

Here is a bit taken from the publication showing Churchills orders to move out the Belgian refugees from the buildings within  the grounds of the Crystal Palace within 3 days . Early Sept 1914. There were other Belgian refugees staying as guests in peoples homes in the C.P. area . The local  "Norwood News"  had articles naming the  Vicar  and others who had accommodated refugees.

EditThe "RND" volumes copied here are all clearly marked "Copy right (C)  Leonard Sellers", with an ISSN reference. My apologies for my error.

  Thanks to @crystalpalacefoundation for this extract .

Edited 21 January by FionaBam
Error regards copyright

[FionaBam]

An even better image popped up today on Anerley Remembered Facebook group of the Palace .handily it labels those 2 buildings relevant to the balloon in shed photos above 

And   here is a poster of sailors  happy to be in Crystal Palace courtesy same Facebook group