F. DUNBAR - Pte 1382 Lanarkshire Yeomanry and Pte 43450 12th Bn HLI

[Tom Lang]

I am researching a local War Memorial and have hit the proverbial 'brick wall'.

The attached photo snippet shows the name (with 2 missing letters).
He was a Private in the Lanarkshire Yeomanry.

My possibilities are 'DUNBAR' or DUNCAN'.

Neither of these (combined with 'Lanarkshire Yeomanry') are listed on CWGC or SNWM.

Does any guru have any hints or clues, or better ideas?

Kindest Regards,
Tom.

[corisande]

Did he necessarily die ?

If not this is a possible

[corisande]

So he did die First name(s)	Frank
Regiment	Highland Light Infantry
Last name	Dunbar
Grave reference	Pier and Face 15 C.
Birth year	-
Cemetery or memorial	Thiepval Memorial
Death year	1916
Burial country	France
Death date	15 Sep 1916
Link	https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead
War	First World War, 1914-1918
Record set	Commonwealth War Graves Commission Debt Of Honour
Number	43450
Category	Military, armed forces & conflict
Rank	Private
Subcategory	First World War
Unit	12th Bn.

[corisande]

There is a very damaged service record

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007303108%2F00972&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7303108%2F54%2F972

[Tom Lang]

28 minutes ago, corisande said:

Did he necessarily die ?

If not this is a possible

 

25 minutes ago, corisande said:

So he did die First name(s)	Frank
Regiment	Highland Light Infantry
Last name	Dunbar
Grave reference	Pier and Face 15 C.
Birth year	-
Cemetery or memorial	Thiepval Memorial
Death year	1916
Burial country	France
Death date	15 Sep 1916
Link	https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead
War	First World War, 1914-1918
Record set	Commonwealth War Graves Commission Debt Of Honour
Number	43450
Category	Military, armed forces & conflict
Rank	Private
Subcategory	First World War
Unit	12th Bn.

 

22 minutes ago, corisande said:

There is a very damaged service record

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007303108%2F00972&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7303108%2F54%2F972

Thank you greatly corisande.

btw I do not have an account with fmp.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

[corisande]

3 minutes ago, Tom Lang said:

btw I do not have an account with fmp.

But you have one with Ancestry?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/598383:1219?tid=&pid=&queryId=7ceb4969-a738-4f41-a2c6-6b8067126f20&_phsrc=QWD520&_phstart=successSource

As I say its very, very damaged

[corisande]

His Soldiers Effect show no NOK, and the service record has such odd/difficult to read who are not Dunbar , that I suspect he may have used an alias

[Tom Lang]

9 minutes ago, corisande said:

But you have one with Ancestry?

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/598383:1219?tid=&pid=&queryId=7ceb4969-a738-4f41-a2c6-6b8067126f20&_phsrc=QWD520&_phstart=successSource

As I say its very, very damaged

 

6 minutes ago, corisande said:

His Soldiers Effect show no NOK, and the service record has such odd/difficult to read who are not Dunbar , that I suspect he may have used an alias

No, I let my ancestry account expire - too expensive (they increased my annual fee so I let it expire).

But many thanks for your great help.

Kindest Regards, and a Happy Hogmanay to You and Yours,

Tom.

[corisande]

I do not think there is much future in me copying  the many pages here, as they have little on each, but arguably if someone spends enough time on it, one may be able to crack his alias

[corisande]

• He enlisted claiming to be 19 years 3 months on 24 Mar 1916 at Hamilton. He was a Surfacemen
• His nok section reads. It looks like a grandmother, but has been replaced by something else
• 
• And his medals were sent to
• 
• Which is really the only workable clue I got out of the records. There are a lot of Milligans in Glasgow !
• He was dead by Sep 1916, so I assume he had been in the Yeomanry already an was shipped straight to France

[Pat Atkins]

Lanarkshire Yeomanry numbers are somewhat confusing, at least to me  (1986 attested late 1913; 656 in March 1914). However - 1373 attested December 1915 and joined March 1916; he was 3rd/1st Lanarkshire Yeomanry and I suspect Dunbar was too.

[Theletterwriter]

The only small piece of information to add to that already supplied by corisande is that in the death record on ScotlandsPeople, Netherburn is recorded so I assume he was living there at the time of enlistment.

[Tom Lang]

On 29/12/2023 at 06:56, Theletterwriter said:

The only small piece of information to add to that already supplied by corisande is that in the death record on ScotlandsPeople, Netherburn is recorded so I assume he was living there at the time of enlistment.

He is listed on the Netherburn War Memorial and the Dalserf War Memorial.

I'm researching the Dalserf War Memorial (Netherburn was also in the Parish of Dalserf).

There are 'duplicates' on both Memorials. Much more work to do.

The Netherburn War Memorial : The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project :: View topic - Netherburn (bizhat.com)

The Dalserf War Memorial (in Ashgillhead): The Scottish Military Research Group - Commemorations Project :: View topic - Dalserf War Memorial, Ashgill, South Lanarkshire (bizhat.com)

Courtesy of The Scottish Military Research Group.

Many thanks to all, and a Guid Hogmanay and Happy New Year when it comes!

Tom.

Edited 24 February by Tom Lang

[Tom Lang]

I'm still struggling to confirm the true identity of FRANK DUNBAR.

From the help already given by members of the GWF, I have:
01) MIC: Frank S. DUNBAR, Pte 1382 Lanarkshire Yeomanry, and Pte 43450 H.L.I.
02) Snippet from Medal Roll showing Lanarkshire Yeomanry attached to 20th I.B.D., and 12 H.L.I.
03) Snippet from Service Record for Address of NOK with "Mrs. Whitelaw" crossed out, and the relationship which looks like "Gran..." - also crossed out, with "Uncle" shown.
04) Snippet showing address where Medals were sent - "? Milligan, ? St, East London Road, Glasgow".

Courtesy of ScotlandsPeople, I obtained the following:
05) Army Form W. 3231 "Return of Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers and Men of the 12th Battn Highland Light Infantry Killed in Action".
This shows "43450 Pte Frank Dunbar, age 19, 15.9.1916, F&F, K. in A."
06) From a list of Service returns:
"Dunbar, Frank, b. Glasgow, e Hamilton, Lanarkshire (Netherburn, Lanarkshire), 43450, Pte., j. in a., F&F., 15/9/16.".

I searched ScotlandsPeople and found a Birth Record as follows:
07) Francis Joseph Dunbar, born 3 Oct 1896 at 43 Wilson Street, Partick, Glasgow.
His mother's maiden surname is "Milligan" which is a great clue to the address where his medals were sent.

His parents were:
Andrew Dunbar, a shipyard Labourer, and Mary Milligan, who were married on 4 Jan 1894 at Partickhill, Glasgow.
08) The marriage record shows:
Andrew Dunbar, age 29, a Widower, Boilermaker's Labourer, of 19 Hamilton Street, Govan, Glasgow.
Mary Milligan, age 29, a Spinster, Dressmaker, of 43 Wilson Street, Partick, Glasgow (the address where Francis Joseph Dunbar was born).
Note that his paternal grandfather was a 'House Painter'.

09) In the 1901 Census, the family are living at 43 Wilson Street, Partick, Glasgow.
Andrew Dunbar, age 36, Head, Shipyard Labourer, b Partick, Lanarkshire.
Mary A. Dunbar, age 36, Wife, b Ireland.
Francis T. Dunbar, age 4, Son, b Ireland.
Allowing for anomalies in Francis' birthplace of 'Partick' to 'Ireland', his middle initial is shown as a 'T'.
Compare the Census Enumerator's handwriting of this 'T' to the 'J' of the daughter of the family in the previous line. His middle initial should be an 'S'.

10) I continued my search and found a death record for Andrew Dunbar, age 41, a Master Shoemaker, who died on 27 Dec 1908, at 78 Anderson St, Partick, Glasgow; (married to Mary Ann Milligan).
In 7 years he had moved employment from 'Shipyard Labourer' to 'Master Shoemaker'.

In the 1911 Census, Mary Dunbar and her son Francis are listed at 108 Douglas Street, Partick, Glasgow, as follows (the census wraps from the bottom of one page to the top of the next, hence 2 attachments (11 & 12)):
Mary Dunbar, age 48, Widow, b Ireland.
Francis Dunbar, Son, age 14, Paste Boy, b Partick, Glasgow.
Note that Francis' paternal grandfather was a 'House Painter' so he was probably working with his grandfather.

13) On 25 Aug 1914 Mary Dunbar, age 52, died at 167 Renfrew Road, Glasgow (former residence 11 Newton Street, Partick, Glasgow), married to Andrew Dunbar, Labourer.
The address 167 Renfrew Road (not to be confused with Renfrew Street), Glasgow, was the Govan Poorhouse, Hospital and Asylum, and were all within the same grounds run by the Govan Parochial Board (later the Parish Council) until the formation of the National Health Service when it was renamed Southern General Hospital.

Her death was reported by the Deputy Governor, William Boyd.

So, where was Francis? In the Lanarkshire Yeomanry?.

I have tried to find some form of family or residence connection to the Village of Netherburn, but cannot find any.

The "FRANCIS J. DUNBAR" is a great candidate, but I am not convinced that he is "FRANK DUNBAR" on the Dalserf War Memorial, or "FRANK S. DUNBAR" on the MIC.

I will continue my search.

Thanks for all the help given by GWF members.

Kindest Regards,
Tom.
 

[Theletterwriter]

Tom

Only a tenuous link but a Robert Dunbar was living in Dalserf in 1921 with his wife Agnes nee McKenna and his parents in law. Going back to the 1894 Dunbar / Milligan wedding, Mary Milligan's witness was an Elizabeth McKenna.

Regards

Douglas

[Tom Lang]

18 minutes ago, Theletterwriter said:

Tom

Only a tenuous link but a Robert Dunbar was living in Dalserf in 1921 with his wife Agnes nee McKenna and his parents in law. Going back to the 1894 Dunbar / Milligan wedding, Mary Milligan's witness was an Elizabeth McKenna.

Regards

Douglas

Well spotted!

I had seen ROBERT DUNBAR in the 1911 & 1921 Census for Swinhill. As he was born in Irvine, Ayrshire, I did not pay him any attention as he was not a relative of FRANK DUNBAR.

I have a copy of the 1911 (Dalserf Parish) Swinhill Census showing:
ROBERT DUNBAR, age 19, a Boarder, Coal Miner, b Irvine, at 38 Swinhill Terrace.
Also:
AGNES McKENNA, age 17, Daughter, b Lanark (County, no town or village), living with her family at 10 Swinhill (the 'Old Rows' were adjacent to 'Swinhill Terrace').

From ScotlandsPeople:
ROBERT ROSS DUNBAR and AGNES McKENNA were married at Holytown, Lanarkshire, in 1913.

I also have the 1921 (Dalserf Parish) Swinhill Census showing:
ROBERT, AGNES & 3 children living with her parents at 10 Old Row, Swinhill.

There are lots of ELIZABETH McKENNAs in the 1891 & 1901 Census records, too many to pay to find a 'relationship'.

As you say, this is 'tenuous' and is a good possibility that through the McKENNA connection, this may have been FRANK DUNLOP's 'connection' to the Village of Netherburn. But the McKENNAs and ROBERT DUNBAR were all living in Swinhill - it is not too far from Netherburn but I'm doubtful.

I haven't given up but I'm running out of ideas.

It is great that you have put 'fresh' eyes on the problem.

Many Thanks!
Tom.

[Tom Lang]

Ooops - I meant to include a snippet from FRANK DUNLOP's parents Marriage showing the Witness Elizabeth McKenna.

Tom.

[Theletterwriter]

Hi Tom

I have had another look at the NoK records that corisande provided at the start of your thread and I think the scrubbed out name is Mrs Whitelaw. Is there a Whitelaw in your researches? The medals look as if they were sent to Mrs M. Milligan. I have had a look at a modern map of London Road and the only road I can see today that possibly looks like on the paperwork is Bain Street. Obviously London Road has gone through a degree of development since the 1920's and the street recorded could now be lost.

Regards

Douglas

[Tom Lang]

3 hours ago, Theletterwriter said:

Hi Tom

I have had another look at the NoK records that corisande provided at the start of your thread and I think the scrubbed out name is Mrs Whitelaw. Is there a Whitelaw in your researches? The medals look as if they were sent to Mrs M. Milligan. I have had a look at a modern map of London Road and the only road I can see today that possibly looks like on the paperwork is Bain Street. Obviously London Road has gone through a degree of development since the 1920's and the street recorded could now be lost.

Regards

Douglas

In the 1911 Census:
----------------------
There is a Whitelaw family at 'Coronation Cottage' Swinhill, Dalserf:
William Whitelaw, age 43, Coal Miner, b Stonehouse.
Maggie Whitelaw, age 40, Wife, b Dalserf.
and 7 children ages between 1 and 21 - all born in Dalserf.

There is a Whitelaw family at Gemmel's Row, Netherburn:
Robert Whitelaw, age 46, Underground Fireman, b Linlithgow.
Agnes Whitelaw, age 42, Wife, b Dalserf.
and 7 children and 1 grandchild.

There is a Whitelaw family at Kennedy's Buildings, Netherburn:
James Whitelaw, age 65, Colliery Labourer, b Ireland.
Jane Whitelaw, age 73, Wife, b Ireland,

In the 1921 Census:
----------------------
There is a Whitelaw family at Hill Terrace, Netherburn:
George Whitelaw, age 43, Coal Miner, b Stonehouse.
Forbes Whitelaw, age 43, Wife, b Dalziel.
with 4 children and 2 grandchildren.

There is a Whitelaw family at Cathkin Terrace, Netherburn (same family above in 1911):
Robert Whitelaw, age 57, Underground Fireman, b Linlithgow.
Agnes Whitelaw, age 52, Wife, b Dalserf.
and 6 children.

--------------------------------------------
I have tried to search the Irish BDM Records, but the names MILLIGAN, McKENNA and WHITELAW are too numerous to make any headway.

--------------------------------------------

FRANCIS JOSEPH DUNBAR, b 3 Oct 1896 at 43 Wilson Street, Patrick, Glasgow.
His parents were:
ANDREW DUNBAR and MARY A. MILLIGAN, who were married on 4 Jan 1894 at Partickhill, Glasgow.
Their marriage record shows ANDREW's parents as ANDREW DUNBAR, House Painter, Deceased, and
CATHERINE DUNBAR nee CREALLY, Deceased.
Their marriage record shows the Witness Elizabeth McKenna.

FRANCIS' father ANDREW DUNBAR, age 41, died on 27 Dec 1908, at Partick, Glasgow.
His mother MARY DUNBAR nee MILLIGAN, age 52, died at Renfrew Road, Glasgow, and her Usual Residence is shown as Newton Street, Partick, Glasgow.

I am unable to make any connection with these families.

It is also worthy to note:
Birth Record  : FRANCIS JOSEPH DUNBAR.
1901 Census  : FRANCIS T. DUNBAR.
MIC                : FRANK S. DUNBAR.

I 'see' your thinking though.

Many Thanks,
Tom.

[Tom Lang]

4 hours ago, Theletterwriter said:

Hi Tom

I have had another look at the NoK records that corisande provided at the start of your thread and I think the scrubbed out name is Mrs Whitelaw. Is there a Whitelaw in your researches? The medals look as if they were sent to Mrs M. Milligan. I have had a look at a modern map of London Road and the only road I can see today that possibly looks like on the paperwork is Bain Street. Obviously London Road has gone through a degree of development since the 1920's and the street recorded could now be lost.

Regards

Douglas

I read @corisande snippet address as ? Street, East London Road, Glasgow.

Bain Street would be a good candidate but the demolished areas of Parkhead, Dalmarnock, etc., Glasgow has taken away that part of Glasgow.

[Theletterwriter]

Tom

I was on the National Library of Scotland website www.maps.nls.uk earlier today and on a 1910 map of the London Road area, there was a Barr Street close to Parkhead. This street seems to now have disappeared as Celtic have spread their fingerprint over the area in recent years.

Barr Street seems to fit in as the location where the medals were sent to a Mrs. Milligan

Douglas

Edited 10 March by Theletterwriter

[Theletterwriter]

Tom

According to the Valuation Rolls of 1915 (via Scotlands People), a James Milligan lived in 13 Barr Street East.

Douglas

[Tom Lang]

3 hours ago, Theletterwriter said:

Tom

I was on the National Library of Scotland website www.maps.nls.uk earlier today and on a 1910 map of the London Road area, there was a Barr Street close to Parkhead. This street seems to now have disappeared as Celtic have spread their fingerprint over the area in recent years.

Barr Street seems to fit in as the location where the medals were sent to a Mrs. Milligan

Douglas

 

1 hour ago, Theletterwriter said:

Tom

According to the Valuation Rolls of 1915 (via Scotlands People), a James Milligan lived in 13 Barr Street East.

Douglas

You're doing a wonderful job, and thankyou for spending so much of your time.

Barr Street is another good candidate, and as @corisande noted above "There are a lot of Milligans in Glasgow !"

I'll take a look in the 1911 and 1921 Census for this James Milligan.

Many Thanks,

Tom.

[Tom Lang]

The Census records for a 'common name' as 'James Milligan' are too many to 'afford'.

I found the Valuation Roll you listed, and have attached 2 snippets (the font size is very small).

Tom.

[Tom Lang]

I'm re-attaching @corisande 's snippet. I think that Barr Street, East London Road, now is a good fit.

Compare with the Valuation Roll - Barr Street, East London Road.

Tom.