La Bassee October 13th 1914 Dorests

[Terry Keech]

I have a great Uncle killed 13th October 1914 on the Battle field at La Bassee. Regiment Dorest, name Jack Keech. Does anyone have information on the battlefield location and trench map as I'm visiting in March 24. Also would there be Regiment photos...

Thank you

Terry keech 

[Jrmh]

Hi Terry, The CWGC gives his Regiment as 1st Battalion Dorsetshire https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/855645/jack-keech/

The War Diary can be downloaded free after registration here: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352277

I'm sure more help will be forthcoming. Good luck

Edited 28 December , 2023 by Jrmh

[Terry Keech]

Brilliant, thank you. Much appreciated.

Terry 

[PRC]

Hi @Terry Keech and welcome to the forum.

The 1st Dorsets were part of the 15th Brigade, itself part of the 5th Division. The commander of the 15th Brigade, Edward, Lord Gleichen, wrote a memoir of his time with the Brigade from landing in France up to the spring of 1915 when he was promoted.  The book "The Doings of the Fifteenth Infantry Brigade" can be read \ downloaded for free from Archive.org. https://archive.org/details/doingsoffifteent00glei

Looking at my copy he has a lot to say about the events of the day and the whole piece needs to be read for context, but specific to the 1st Dorsets:-

"But by far the worst was what happened to the Dorsets. The account of what happened was rather confused, but it appears that, depending on their left being supported by the Bedfords at Givenchy, and their right by the K.O.S.B.'s (13th Brigade) on the south side of the Canal, they pushed forward for some distance and dug themselves roughly in,
after driving the Germans back. Then suddenly their front trench was attacked from the left rear, and a heavy fire poured upon their men as they retired on their supports. They were also shot down from the embankment on the south of the Canal--from just where they had expected the K.O.S.B.'s to be.

At one place about twenty Germans advanced and held up their hands. The Dorsets then advanced to take their surrender, when suddenly the twenty fell down flat, and about 100 more who had come close up under cover of the incident opened a heavy fire on our men and killed a lot. The battalion retired slowly, in admirable order, to Pont Fixe
and the trenches covering it, and put a big factory there in a state of defence. But they had lost very heavily: thirteen officers killed (including Pitt and Davidson), wounded (including Bols and Rathbone), and missing; and 112 men killed and wounded, and 284 missing--most of these, I fear, being killed, for numbers of bodies were discovered later on between the lines. Bols was at first reported killed, but he only had a bullet through his back, narrowly missing the spine, and another through his arm. He fell unseen and had to be left behind when
the battalion retired, and was found and stripped of all his kit by the Germans; but he recovered in the darkness, and managed to scramble and crawl back to the English lines. (From here he was sent to London, arriving there only two days later.)

The Dorsets as well as the Bedfords also lost one of their machine-guns. Altogether it was a damnable day, and we on the staff were also pretty well exhausted by the amount of staff work and telegrams and messages going through all day. The 2nd Devons (or rather two companies of them) were sent to the assistance of the Dorsets in the evening; but it was a difficult thing to carry out, as the banks of the Canal, along which they had to go, were soft and boggy, and they had much difficulty in getting their S.A.A. carts along.

The Brigade Headquarters withdrew in the evening from Festubert to a foul big farm about half a mile back. This, from a particularly offensive big cesspool in the middle of the yard, we labelled Stink Farm (it had 1897 in big red tiles on the roof). It was a beastly place, and W. and I had to sleep in a tiny room on a couple of beds which had not seen clean mattresses or coverings for certainly ten years or more. There were, however, plenty of barns and clean straw for the men."

Cheers,
Peter

 

[Terry Keech]

Peter,

Thank you, much appreciated. I will take a look at the links.

 

Terry 

[PRC]

And from the same source there is this map.

Image courtesy https://archive.org/details/doingsoffifteent00glei/page/166/mode/2up?q=Gloster&view=theater

Cheers,
Peter

[Terry Keech]

Wow, that's brilliant. Thank you.

Terry 

[Jrmh]

Brigade Diary shows Dorsets holding  PONT FIXE https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14017030 

[Jrmh]

Not a trench map but Pont Fixe shown in square A14: https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465014

[PRC]

You may also be interested in some of the images and maps on this page of our parent site, The Long, Long Trail. It's centred on Cuinchy which is on the other side of the canal. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battlefields/gazetteer-of-the-western-front/gazetteer-of-the-western-front-cuinchy/

Cheers,
Peter

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Terry Keech said:

Does anyone have information on the battlefield location and trench map as I'm visiting in March 24.

The 1st Manchesters were in action in much the same location later in December 1914. I note from a thread on the Manchester Regiment forum:-
On the 20th December 1914, the 1st Bn. was instructed to follow the Bethune-La Bassee canal and to meet the Brigade-Major at Pont Fixe.  Today this position can be identified on the D166 (Festubert Rd.) where it crosses the canal at Cuinchy.  (Nearby is an impressive series of locks, in later years used by the troops for bathing purposes, despite being within range of the enemy's guns!).
https://themanchesters.org/forum/index.php?topic=7406.0

The Australian War Memorial website has a picture of the area taken in 1918 when their Engineers were working in the area of Ponte Fixe - I don't know if that is the original bridge or a wartime temporary replacement.

Image courtesy the Australian War Memorial, their reference H19531, copyright stated to have expired. https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/H19531

And heres the view in August 2022 from the bridge carrying the D166 into Cuinchy and looking eastwards - the line of advance of the Dorsets on the left bank as we look at it.

Image courtesy Google streetviews.

Cheers,
Peter

[Terry Keech]

Brilliant, thank you. This will give my Son and I a great deal of information to research before our trip.

Kind regards

Terry 

[Terry Keech]

Jrmh and PRC

Thank you both for all the information, really appreciated.

Kind regards 

Terry 

[Michelle Young]

The towpath is navigable on foot. Parking wise, you can probably park at the station. I don’t know where you’re staying, but I use a very good bed and breakfast not far from Le Touret when I visit the area. 

[Terry Keech]

Michelle.

Thank you, we will be going to the Le Touret cemetery as Jack's name is on a memorial there (thanks for the information sent earlier).

I'm so grateful for all the information and help.

Kind regards 

Terry 

[Michelle Young]

https://www.chambres-hotes.fr/chambres-hotes_la-niche_vieille-chapelle_h1488893.htm
 

I have been visiting here at least twice a year since 2017. Unfussy simple rooms and a fabulous breakfast. I count Marjorie and Christophe as friends. 

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Terry Keech said:

Also would there be Regiment photos...

Assume you mean any that might include him Hopefully you have a copy of his service record, (available on Ancestry, Fold 3 and FindMyPast), so you have a much better idea than me of when he might have been a full time soldier and when he was a reservist. The standard short service for someone enlisting in the Regular Army was 12 years, split between a period in the colours, (i.e. in uniform, in barracks, subject to military discipline 24/7 and receiving full board and lodging, pay, clothing and medical care), and a period in the reserves, (i.e. back in civvy street, subject to military discipline only when receiving refresher training, receiving half pay and access to medical care but liable to immediate recall in the event of a national emergency such as war.) The default split on offer changed from time to time, although a soldier could ask to vary the split but they would have to push for it. I see FindMyPast have indexed the service record for 6996 Jack Keech as starting in 1903. At that time the standard split for an Army infantry recruit was three years in the colours and 9 in the reserves.

Subject to satisfactory performance a soldier could then ask to do more time in the colours, and thus less in the reserves.

But I suspect by the time Britain joined the Great War Jack was probably in the reserve part of his enlistment. With the declaration of war all the regular reservists were mobilised. They had a rail warrant to get them to the depot where they would be medically inspected and kitted out, before being sent on in groups to wherever the UK based Regular Army Battalions were located. In the case of the 1st Dorsets they were in Ireland.

Pre-war practice was that in a county regiment like the Dorsets there would be two Regular Army battalions, with one in the UK and one overseas. The overseas one was maintained at full strength as far as possible, but becasue the army had consistantly missed it's recruiting targets, the home based battalion was frequently only at 50-60% strength. The newly arrived mobilised were thus sorted through and preference given to those who had recently completed their time in the colours plus those who during their time in the colours had seen overseas service in order to bring the Battalion up to campaign strength. Unfortunately for many Regular Army battalions the 3 and 9 men were seen as a bit of a liability. A short lived experiment seen as a way to build up a bulkier reserve and thus avoid the need for the national service schemes deployed by the continental army the reality is that it did not attract a new class of recruit, the three years in the colours left little time for the individual soldier to see overseas service or for the regiment to invest in specialist training and by the time war was declared many of them had been out of uniform for 7 to 8 years.

It's my best guess that he was a 3 and 9 man, as I note from his Medal Index Card that he did not land in France until the 27th August 1914, after the 1st Dorsets had suffered significant losses at Mons and the subsequent retreat. So other than ill-health the most common reasons for being held back in my experience was those who had seen comparatively little peace time soldiering and were in need of remedial \ catch-up training.

Any picture of him as part of a battalion group is likely to stem from his earlier pre-war soldiering. Once they were in the field the British Army was probably the most restrictive of the main combatants in the Great War when it came to allowing cameras to be taken as a personal item. There would have been little opportunity, and probably little desire, for a panoramic style whole battalion picture to be taken.

From his service record you should have the details of which battalion(s) he served with pre-war and where they were stationed.  A google search may turn up images from the relevant period, and there may also be images held at the Regimental Museum the Dorsets share with the Devonshire Regiment. https://www.keepmilitarymuseum.org/

Cheers,
Peter

[Terry Keech]

Peter

Thank you, I will look up what we have. I have his service medal and that's it at the moment. We had hoped to find some photos a few years back sent via an elderly auntie, unfortunately no luck. I will contact the regimental museum and see if I have any luck, May also be good to take a trip down there at some point before we go in March.

Thanks again and kind regards 

Terry 

Michelle

Thank you for the hotel advice.

Kind regards 

Terry 

[brianmorris547]

Terry

1914 Trench Maps are very rare and the best you can usually hope for is a detailed sketch. There are some maps in 1914 War Diaries but these may have been put in later. The best contemporary maps (I think) of the area are in the late 1914 WDs of the Commander Royal Artillery 7 Indian Div. Attached TNA/Ancestry WO 95/3933. 

Compare Pont Fixe with this map from the September 1915 WD of 2 Div HQ General Staff. TNA/Ancestry WO 95/1287 which had the updated squaring system.

Brian

Edited 29 December , 2023 by brianmorris547
typo

[Terry Keech]

Brian,

Thank you for the information, this is amazing and very much appreciated. I will print these off (with the other information I have received) and use as our information pack on the trip. 

This is an incredibly helpful and informative forum, and a great group of people taking part in the research and preservation of these important events in history. 

Thank you

Terry

[Jrmh]

15 hours ago, Terry Keech said:

I have his service medal

Just one? He was entitled to the trio.

Have a great trip.

[PRC]

4 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

1914 Trench Maps are very rare and the best you can usually hope for is a detailed sketch. There are some maps in 1914 War Diaries but these may have been put in later. The best contemporary maps (I think) of the area are in the late 1914 WDs of the Commander Royal Artillery 7 Indian Div. Attached TNA/Ancestry WO 95/3933. 

Compare Pont Fixe with this map from the September 1915 WD of 2 Div HQ General Staff. TNA/Ancestry WO 95/1287 which had the updated squaring system.

Thanks Brian.

The 1914 map is unclear but doesn't look like it shows any buildings on the northside of Pont Fixe, while the 1915 map appears to have quite a considerable one.

Image courtesy Ancestry\TNA

Having spent sometime yesterday looking at the contemporary images of the approach to the roadbridge carrying the D166 into Cuinchy, (based on a steer from the Manchester Regiment forum that said bridge was Pont Fixe), I could remember there were buildings in that location. So hoping to provide more of an orientation for Terry and identify buildings that would have seen the passing of the Dorsets I tried playing around with google streetviews - and hit a problem. As you can see from the map extract the church in Cuinchy is in the bottom right hand corner. For someone approaching Cuinchy from the north and crossing Pont Fixe the church, if it could be seen at all, would be on their left.

But the view from the north of the D166 bridge shows the church on the right. (Map orientated to match picture).

Images courtesy Ancestry, TNA and Google streetviews.

Checking the map westwards its quite some distance before there is another bridge, and all the roads that approach the canal from the north have no evidence of a substantial building on the canal bank. The D166 also heads straight into Cuinchy, whereas the two Great War era maps shows it's predecessor dog-legging before hitting a junction with a road heading into Cuinchy.

The Australian War Memorial picture stated to have been taken in the Pont Fixe area also adds to the confusion, at least for me.  We don't know for sure if the image is actually of Pont Fixe, and if it is, whether we are looking at a view showing the bridge crossing the canal from North to South or South to North. However whichever way it is we are left with the ruins of a building that doesn't tie up with the maps.

Image courtesy the Australian War Memorial, their reference H19531, copyright stated to have expired. https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/H19531

Could be wrong but the canal in the contemporary pictures seems wider, so I suspect there have been major changes in road alignment as well. Any idea whether the 1915 map co-ordinates show where Pont Fixe should be now?

Cheers,
Peter

[brianmorris547]

Peter

I have been comparing the 1915 map with my IGN 1:25 000 no 2405 E Lens (which has been my faithful companion during many walks around Loos) and it is hard to align. 

Terry

This is the map you will need on your trip.

Brian 

[PRC]

6 hours ago, brianmorris547 said:

I have been comparing the 1915 map with my IGN 1:25 000 no 2405 E Lens (which has been my faithful companion during many walks around Loos) and it is hard to align. 

Thanks for looking. The moden map shows what I take to be the D166 running through the centre of Cuinchy, and indeed following it on google streetviews, after crossing the bridge and heading through Cuinchy it runs right past the church - which is on your left as you head south.

Image courtesy Google streetviews.

Given the age of some of the houses on either side of the road this is not a new road. So going back to the 1915 map I would say the bridge lies just to the right of the word "Lock" in the canal and connecting up the two roads that end on either canal bank. Makes you wonder if there was actually a bridge there that was destroyed in the early days of the war.

The Canal d'Aire is now part of a grander interconnection of canals known generically (apparently) as the Dunkirk-Scheldt Canal. The related Wikipedia article says these were modernised, deepened and widened between the late 1950's to start of the eighties.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk-Scheldt_Canal So likely that if Pont Fixe was a chokepoint the whole thing was removed, leaving no \ minimal trace of where it was. Perhaps the guest house owners will know more.

If that assessment is correct, then my understanding is that it was the lock that the Dorsets were trying to get to, and so the action of the day would of been to the west of the "new" bridge rather than the east.

Cheers,
Peter

[Michelle Young]

I’ve driven down through Cuinchy many times. You don’t get to it via Givenchy as depicted by the war time maps, you drive down through Festubert. The village appears to have been reconstructed along the D166, although there is a fair bit of housing along past Woburn Abbey cemetery and the communal cemetery, and up to the canal bank.