German Ingenieur officers with Kress 1915

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I was after any details on these Engineer Officers and there mining operations of the Canal during 1915

RTG illness shown in Klaus Wolf's Book

(1882 at Landshut DoD 23-8-16) Krankheit (illness) of cholera shown in Klaus Wolf's Book

I found them in Erickson's book Palestine  The Ottoman Campaigns of 1914-18

The main person I find is Hans, but he died well before the war

I did find a Maj Major von Kaltenborn-Stachau an Engineer officer with the VII Corps in France in 1914

and two others I am not sure of

 

• v. Kaltenborn-Stachau, Freifrau, , auf Mittel-Lobendau.
• v. Kaltenborn-Stachau, Leutnant a. D., Bad Oeynhausen.

Edited 23 December , 2023 by stevenbecker

[charlie2]

6 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

v. Kaltenborn-Stachau, Freifrau, , auf Mittel-Lobendau.

Is a Baroness (Freifrau) so can be ruled out unless she was a nurse or something similar.

Charlie

[stevenbecker]

Cheers Charlie,

I sure the Frau gave it away.

Of cause these others Officers I am still not sure of as no first names are given

When checking the net only Hans is found but died before the war.

Likewise Martin Schuh is mentioned as with the Yildrim, but that was formed in 1917, long after his death in 1916

Erickson mentioned they help mine the Canal, but I don't recall reading any mining around that time.

OF cause most books say the Ottoman forces begun their withdrawal after the failed crossing in early 1915, but Kress appears to have remained and carried out raids along the canal with small forces during 1915.

[charlie2]

On 23/12/2023 at 03:40, stevenbecker said:

The main person I find is Hans, but he died well before the war

Presumably General der Infanterie and Minister of War Hans Karl Georg Kaltenborn-Stachau. He had two sons; Hans Karl Georg a Hauptmann (Retired as Major after the war) in 1914 with IR64 and Friedrich Heinrich Rudolf an Oberleutnant in Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr.1, KiA Autrey 30.08.1914.

There was also an Oberleutnant in Füsilier Regiment 80 who also ended the war as a Major and a Leutnant Roland Kaltenborn-Stachau with the Lehr-Regiment für Fußartillerie he ended the war as a Hauptmann after service in the Cameroon.

What puzzles me is that all are Infantry/Artillery officers with no obvious links to engineering. I would have thought that the mining of the Suez Canal would require sea mines, which one would expect to be a naval task or at least require naval expertise. 

On 23/12/2023 at 03:40, stevenbecker said:

v. Kaltenborn-Stachau, Leutnant a. D., Bad Oeynhausen.

Was a reserve officer in IR82, resigned his commission in mid 1918.

Martin Schuh is a real puzzle, I‘ve also asked about him on a German forum. He can be traced from 1903 till 1911 as an officer with the Bavarian 16.IR, he was then posted as an instructor to the Cadet school in 1912 and thereafter in 1913 to Bavarian 10.IR. After late 1913 he disappears off the face of the earth.

Charlie

[stevenbecker]

Charlie,

Thanks for checking on Xmas

Yes I first believed he may be related to Hans but they ended in dead ends.

I did notice there were two spellings of his name, but also hit a brick wall.

As for Martin his being on the Mission to Turkey in 1913/14 maybe the reason he disappeared and died there.

[Glenn J]

Steve,

I have been looking at this and frankly, it has been rather unproductive. As a starting point I checked for every Kaltenborn-Stachau commissioned into the Prussian army later than 1880; there were 11 in total. Of these three had died long before the war. One had become a divisional padre and five others were still serving at the outbreak of war. Of the serving officers, Friedrich in GGR 1 was already killed in 1914.

The other four:

Hans in IR 64

Joachim in FR 80 (later a Wehrmacht Oberst)

Wilhelm, the reserve officer in IR 82 (although he was a regular until 1912)

Roland in the Instructional regiment of the foot artillery school of gunnery/Schutztruppe of German East Africa (Lehr-Regiment der Fußartillerie-Schießschule)

As Charlie has remarked none had an engineering background.

An Ernst von Kaltenborn-Stachau had served as a Leutnant in Jäger-Bataillon 5 from around 1906 to 1909 but had left the service in less than desirable circumstances. He does not appear in the Militär-Wochenblatt to have been re-employed.

I would be interested in the source of your Major in VII Korps in 1914.

Regards

Glenn

 

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

'Thanks your right, the Maj and the orbat was for the 1870 possibly Hans

Both sources I have, Erickson and Wolf, show him as von Kaltenborn-Stachau during WWI, but no other Bio details?

So like you I hit a dead end to find him?

cheers and Merry Xmas and the better New year

[Glenn J]

Hi Steve,

 

thank you for the 1870 confirmation. That was indeed Hans, then a general staff officer serving with VII. Army Corps.

I am a little confused regarding Erickson's book. This is a screenshot from my Kindle edition of his Palestine book and the name shown is Kaltenbah (that in itself is not very useful either as I can find absolutely no one of that name). Is this an issue in the typesetting of the Kindle edition and the print book shoes something else?

Regards

Glenn

[charlie2]

2 hours ago, Glenn J said:

typesetting of the Kindle edition and the print book shoes something else?

Hi Glenn

It seems so

Andreas (former pal „The Prussian“) on the FGF has come up some interesting information. 
From „Friedrich Freiherr Kreß v. Kressenstein
Bayerischer General und Orientkenner (Lebenserinnerungen, Tagebücher und Berichte 1914-1916)
Hrsg. Winfried Baumgart, Schöningh Verlag 2020.“

and from a Turkish dissertation

Edited 28 December , 2023 by charlie2

[Glenn J]

Hi Charlie,

thanks for posting that; very interesting indeed. The Kreß book is on my want list! And well done to Andreas!

so, it may be the case that we are looking for a Kaltenbach? One has to bear in mind given the lack of an explicit rank, that he may not have been a commissioned officer at the time; it appears that Oberstleutnant Frhr. von Kreß does not mention him. Of course, he may not be Prussian and that is another avenue to explore.

with regards to Herr Schuh, I checked the “Personal-Veränderungen” of the Bavarian Army from 1912 onwards and his leaving Bavarian service is not gazetted and it would seem that he did not receive any Bavarian decorations as he is not listed once in the wartime editions throughout 1914-1916.

Regards

Glenn

[AOK4]

I checked, no "Kallenbach" (not Kaltenbach) in the Ehren-Rangliste that fits.

Jan

[charlie2]

There is an infantry Lt.d.Landwehr (1.Aufgebote) Kaltenbach under Landwehrbezirk Freiburg in the 1914 Rangliste. A possibility?

Charlie

[Glenn J]

Charlie, Jan,

it almost seems like we are chasing shadows. As far as I understand, the name "Kaltenborn/Kaltenbah/Kaltenbach/Kallenbach" is not actually named by Kreß or any German source? I think we are dealing with a tricky transliteration from Ottoman Turkish which is not helpful.

I too have been doing a bit of further checking and I can find no candidate with either the name Kallenbach or Kaltenbach with any reasonable connection to Suez in 1915.

The Freiburg Leutnant der Landwehr (Franz Kaltenbach) was serving in LIR 110 at the time of his promotion to Oberleutnant on 24 December 1914 and in RIR 250 when promoted to Hauptmann on 10 July 1916.

Regards

Glenn

 

 

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Yes but he is shown as an officer in all sources see page 276 of Wolf's book shown as with the Engineer Detachment at Gallipoli 1915

Shown as Kaltenborn-Stachau von

Shown in Erickson as an officer named Kaltenbah page 41 and 225

as to the others named

later a Maj with the 2nd Camel Regt

carried mines on camels to the Gulf of Aqaba and Suez and laid them 1915 awarded EK II 4-15 & EK I 8-16 (not identified)? shown in Klaus Wolf's Book

Hardy - unknown no one close to that name?

Witzleben - unknown not found

Leissner or Leißner - not found

Mors - not found possibly

 

So there are names we can find but others not so?

Edited 28 December , 2023 by stevenbecker

[stevenbecker]

I did wonder if the officer shown as Kaltenborn-Stachau maybe navy as a large number of Naval Mine warfare officers were in Turkey at that time, but none are shown with the 4th Army other then Brasch?

I was trying to chase down Engineer officers with Kress during 1915, other then those mentioned, I did find this man

While a number of other Officers were with his forces none are shown as Engineers

Of cause if you can ID any others that would be nice

A Number of KUK Engineer officers are mentioned in works by Australians in 1916 and by others in the Tor expedition by the 2/7 RGR

But none are ever ID'ed 

[Glenn J]

10 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

Of cause if you can ID any others that would be nice

Hi Steve,

I am working on them! You will of course be aware, that a major difficulty in many cases is the lack of definitive information regarding rank, branch of service, contingent and even whether German or Austro-Hungarian.

Regards

Glenn

[charlie2]

11 hours ago, stevenbecker said:

I did wonder if the officer shown as Kaltenborn-Stachau maybe navy

I checked last week and drew a blank in the 1912-13-14 navy lists and the Marine Ehren Rangliste.

Charlie

[Glenn J]

With regards to Kaltenborn, Kaltenbach etc, Andreas at the Feldgrau forum posted another extract from the Kreß book in which Kreß mentions Kaltenbach (the spelling used) is termed as a "Kriegsfreiwilliger" or war volunteer. That rather strikes me as a young soldier in the ranks, recently enlisted for the wars' duration.

Regards

Glenn

[AOK4]

2 hours ago, charlie2 said:

I checked last week and drew a blank in the 1912-13-14 navy lists and the Marine Ehren Rangliste.

Charlie

 

1 hour ago, Glenn J said:

With regards to Kaltenborn, Kaltenbach etc, Andreas at the Feldgrau forum posted another extract from the Kreß book in which Kreß mentions Kaltenbach (the spelling used) is termed as a "Kriegsfreiwilliger" or war volunteer. That rather strikes me as a young soldier in the ranks, recently enlisted for the wars' duration.

Regards

Glenn

I had checked the Marine-Ehrenrangliste earlier as well.

If "Kaltenbach" was not an officer, then it will be extremely difficult to find anything about him. The first post seemed to imply he was an Oberleutnant...

[Glenn J]

1 hour ago, AOK4 said:

If "Kaltenbach" was not an officer, then it will be extremely difficult to find anything about him.

I think that may well be the case.

Steve,

"Johannes" is not the correct forename of Hauptmann Gerlach.

Konrad Gerlach was originally commissioned into Pionier-Bataillon Fürst Radziwill (Ostpreußisches) Nr. 1 on 27 January 1907 with a Patent of seniority of 14.6.05 B2b1. He remained with PB 1 until transferring to 1. Elsässisches Pionier-Bataillon on 19 July 1911. He was promoted to Oberleutnant on 19 June 1914. He was a member of the Militär-Mission as confirmed in the Ehrenrangliste (page 21) where he is listed with many other mission members under the rubric "Offiziere von der Armee". And like most of these, his appointment to the military mission was not published in the Militär-Wochenblatt. He was promoted to Hauptmann in the Prussian army with a Patent of 27.7.15 P2p. Following the end of the war and the consequent reduction of the army, he was retired on 31 December 1919 and was promoted to the charakterisieter (brevet) rank of Major with seniority of 31 December 1919 and granted permission to wear the uniform of Pionier-Batallion Nr. 1 on 26 January 1920. He was employed at the Deutsch-Türkische Handels A.G. in Leipzig in the early 1920s.

Regards

Glenn
 

[stevenbecker]

Glenn,

Interesting as most of the details on him come from Wolf's book page 263

[Glenn J]

1 hour ago, stevenbecker said:

Glenn,

Interesting as most of the details on him come from Wolf's book page 263

Hi Steve,

not a great issue, I just disagree with Klaus Wolf on this particular officer. The only Johannes Gerlach in the Prussian army in the period under discussion was a Leutnant in Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 82 killed in action in 1914,

Going back to Kreß; the only Hardy I could find is Rittmeister der Reserve Hugo Hardy of Husaren-Regiment Nr. 9. His civilian profession was an official in the colonial office (not to mention international tennis player). He appears as an officer on the staff of 5th army in 1917 and also the holder of an Iron Cross 2nd class.

Regards

Glenn

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Not the first time that issue has come up

both (not identified)/confirmed? 

[Glenn J]

Steve,

happy to clear this one up: There was exactly one regular officer of this name in the Prussian army during WW1: Kurt Hermann Otto Moldzio, (3 December 1879 - 1 October 1946), in 1914, a Rittmeister (18.12.13 C2c) on the staff of 2. Badisches Dragoner-Regiment Nr. 21. Promoted to Major on 15 July 1918, he was retired on 7 January 1920. His final wartime appointment as shown in the Ehrenrangliste is that of a general staff officer on the staff of Heeresgruppe F. Kurt Moldzio died as an Oberst a.D., so presumably served in some capacity in WW2.

Regards

Glenn

[stevenbecker]

Glenn,

Your very good at this.

What about these three that Wolf could add not more to

Very little on them even unsure if he spelled them right.

I can not find when they were in Turkey or what they got up to?

Happy New Year