Training Fatalities in Britain

[Perth Digger]

Edited 21 December , 2023 by Perth Digger
Updated

[charlie962]

A quick check of Airmen Died in the Great War for the year 1917 gives:

Killed whilst Flying.  841

Killed in Action.       1362

Died of Wounds.        216

Others**.                      478

Total deaths.            2897

 

I assume killed whilst flying is the accident figure.

Covers all theatres of course.

**Others must include sickness but I wonder if those who died from accidental injuries also feature?

Would an officer on secondment from other arms and who died during training be recorded in Airmen Died or Soldiers Died ?

Edited 21 December , 2023 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Airmen Died 1914-19 only has a total of 9514 so is missing a chunk?

Edited 21 December , 2023 by charlie962

[Perth Digger]

Others also include ground crew?

[charlie962]

43 minutes ago, Perth Digger said:

Others also include ground crew?

Yes.

 

[Perth Digger]

Rather than think that Airmen Died is missing a chunk, I'd think that the 8000 figure is grossly exaggerated, by about a factor of ten.

The training squadrons may have had their weaknesses, but they would hardly have been allowed to kill on average 157 pilots per month for the whole war! My figure suggests less than one a day (over the whole war), 27.6 per month in 1917.

Mike

Edited 21 December , 2023 by Perth Digger
added info

[charlie962]

We could be in that classic confusion on casualties - killed or killed/injured.

Using the term pilots might also need a check. Were observers and airgunners included? Airmen Died certainly includes them.

Is your figure 338 just pilots? 

[charlie962]

This old thread helps.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/240115-rfcrnasraf-training-deaths-100-years-on/

[Perth Digger]

No, it's all participants.

[charlie962]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Would an officer on secondment from other arms and who died during training be recorded in Airmen Died or Soldiers Died ?

From a tiny sample check, some appear in both and one I couldn't find in either!

SDGW for 1917 just with regiment Royal Flying Corps produces

Killed in Action.  900

Died of Wounds  171

Other.**                  499

Total                     1570

 

**Other includes Died but I've not analysed further 

Edited 21 December , 2023 by charlie962

[PRC]

Well out side the area where I have any great knowledge, but some thoughts based on the recent thread -

A number of the incidents led to individuals dieing of their injuries over the subsequent days \ weeks - how are they accounted for in Airmen Died?

The incidents include individuals serving with the RNAS. Denis Winter's sourced may or may not be including them, but presumably not included in Airmen Died.

Fatalities include Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians, South Africans and Americans attached to the RFC \ RNAS \ RAF. For one of my own projects I've recently transcribed some newspaper reports of Italians and Russians elsewhere in the UK. Presumably not all of those, if indeed any, are included in Airmen died, but they died while in flight training or as a result of it.

Some of those who died were on ferry flights. And from local knowledge it seems like a significant number of crashes in the Norwich area were of planes flying from the Aircraft Acceptance Park on Mousehold Heath.

Gut feel is that not all the incidents are covered by the R.Cawsey UK aero accidents website, but I haven't done a reconciliation to establish the extent of the undercount.

I'm not putting this forward to say it accounts for the major discrepancy, just that the source Airman Died is a minima, not a maximum.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

that the source Airman Died is a minima, not a maximum.

Peter, I had in mind that thread and had tested a few names against Airman Died and would agree with your statement.

But it's a much more reliable figure than Winter's. 

It's also in the same ballpark as a quick look at CWGC for 1917, some 2500 or so

Charlie

 

[Perth Digger]

I just thought I'd reiterate what my limits were when doing my count. No RNAS, no pilots or passengers killed while at squadrons that were not training squadrons and none killed while transferring planes etc. Trevor has a list of those killed while serving in home-based non-training squadrons. These are in the list I used (so it seems to me to be very comprehensive) but I extracted them with the other types. My concern is that there seems to be no evidence that is verifiable to suggest that anywhere near 8000 trainees and their teachers were killed in the training squadrons. I just find it hard to understand how anyone could believe that in the first place. It's so implausible.

Mike

[MikeMeech]

4 hours ago, Perth Digger said:

I just thought I'd reiterate what my limits were when doing my count. No RNAS, no pilots or passengers killed while at squadrons that were not training squadrons and none killed while transferring planes etc. Trevor has a list of those killed while serving in home-based non-training squadrons. These are in the list I used (so it seems to me to be very comprehensive) but I extracted them with the other types. My concern is that there seems to be no evidence that is verifiable to suggest that anywhere near 8000 trainees and their teachers were killed in the training squadrons. I just find it hard to understand how anyone could believe that in the first place. It's so implausible.

Mike

Hi

I did do some work on this back in 2017 for a short piece for the 'Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research', Winter 2017:

 

I

I think I have posted this before on the forum, it has been discussed before (more than once I believe), but that is my take on the subject.  I suspect the large figure in Winter's book was more for an 'effect' than an accurate reflection of the 'Official Figures' (there are other errors in his book which are a bit odd).  The fact that Winter's figures have still been used in recent years is rather more disturbing!  

Mike

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, MikeMeech said:

I think I have posted this before on the forum,

Indeed. See the link to your 2016 thread that I posted above. You were quite right in your statement that:

 

" It is probable that the maximum total of those that died during training is 1,674 (possibly less). Although a 'high' figure to our eyes,this is rather different than 8,000 pilot fatalities in training that is regularly quoted. However, I wonder how much this latter figure will be quoted in books and other print media as well as TV and radio over this 100th anniversary period as it has much more 'impact' to illustrate the horrors of WW1?"

Edited 21 December , 2023 by charlie962

[Moonraker]

FWIW the 1930 Wiltshire edition of The War Graves of the British Empire lists 72 war graves for the "Royal Air Force", including the RFC - and four for the WRAF. I haven't checked, but I would guess the latter and perhaps several of the former resulted from illness, notably Spanish Influenza. The Central Flying School at Upavon and RFC Netheravon had opened before the war, with five training depot airfields opening in 1917.

[Perth Digger]

Thank you all for your comments and interest. In particular, may I thank you Mike for putting your JSAHR paper online (again!). Looking at Cawsey's list, Trevor's list and newspaper reports, I'd guess that about half of the 1600 killed flying belonged to proper training squadrons. 800 would not be the number of fatal TS crashes, as many crashes killed 2 men, trainer and pupil. As a few involved crashing on private houses and the killing of civilians, it is not surprising that training was newsworthy.

Given what is known about Winter's approach to the British in the war, this is not "the myth of 8000" but "the lie of 8000".

Mike

[quemerford]

In case it helps, my latest listing for Yatesbury shows 73 airmen who died during the station's late 1916 to early 1919 activity. 

 

There is also a very useful set of files at TNA detailing accidents and fatalities at Training Units. One example is AIR 1/680/21/13/2207, which has figures for Training Units at Home. I'd suggest these would be a good place for serious research. The reference shown gives the following totals - Sep 1918: 119; Oct 1918: 108; Nov 1918: 21. It also shows that all Training Brigades suffered 229 casualties for the period July thru December 1917.

[Moonraker]

At first I was surprised that 73 Yatesbury airmen died,  as my post above notes 72 RAF/RFC war graves for all of the county of Wiltshire. The War Graves of the British Empire lists16 RAF/RFC war graves in Yatesbury Churchyard - and notes that two American graves had been removed. Russian Army cadet pilot Aleksandr Pavlovich Vinogradov is also buried there.

I imagine that some aircrew were buried close to where they were killed or their bodies repatriated.

I'm not doubting your statistic, quemerford: I know you've researched Yatesbury far more than I have.  Are you able to tell us more about those 73 airmen and how and where they died?

[quemerford]

Most died as a result of flying accidents; many are not buried locally. Of those more mundane - but no less tragic - losses, I am drawn to PteII Leonard Joseph Hudson. Born in Hendon on 18 September 1896, he had initially enlisted in the army during 1916 and served with the 12th Lancers before transfer to the Army Veterinary Corps in October 1917. His transfer to the RFC was made on 1 May 1918 in the trade of batman (rank Private 2nd Class). From the Recruits Depot at Farnborough he was posted to No.106 Squadron which was just forming with RE.8s at Andover. By June of 1918 he was attached to No.66 TS at Yatesbury.

 

On 21 June 1918 he was posted as a deserter and was eventually apprehended and placed under arrest on 17 July. Tried by District Court Martial at Yatesbury on 13 August he was sentenced to 112 days detention, with all his former service to be forfeited such that his service would now be reckoned from 13 August 1918; his desertion had basically re-set the clock on his time in the military. Of interest his charges not only included that he "deserted HM Service" but also that of "Losing by neglect his clothing and service necessaries". He'd obviously disposed of his uniform and reverted to civvies whilst on the run, which maybe made him more obvious as a deserter in time of war.

 

He was imprisoned in Devizes Barracks and died there, under detention, of Spanish flu on 23 November 1918. 

[PRC]

On 21/12/2023 at 13:35, Perth Digger said:

My concern is that there seems to be no evidence that is verifiable to suggest that anywhere near 8000 trainees and their teachers were killed in the training squadrons. I just find it hard to understand how anyone could believe that in the first place. It's so implausible.

For those who take a keen interest perhaps but for a generalist such as myself studying those who served from one area, the impression I get is that where airmen appear on war memorials of the Great War, a good half died in the UK. My impression may of course be clouded by the number of those who died and who were buried here in Norfolk who I also study - those from the empire or who had no relative to request the return of the body to a home town. I've not done a scientific analysis and may just have researched the "wrong" group of memorials that has led to me forming that working theory. Could I have said previously how many Pilots and Aircrew of Britain and its Empire actually died - no. Could I say how many died in the UK, let alone while training - thats a no as well. So I don't know the numbers but have a ballpark figure in my head that 50% plus died in the UK - which is what it appears Winter is saying and coming up with some very spurious figures to over-egg his case.

What re-inforces that for me is that local War Memorials for WW2 seems to also reflect a similar split between those who died in training \ non-operational flying and those who died in theatres of war - only now the training is also being done in Canada, the USA and Rhodesia. Again that's just an impression - but an example of how that statement by Winter could be taken at face value to chime with a subjective theory rather than confirm an objective fact.

BTW - I can see I need to mentally revise that percentage down

18 hours ago, Perth Digger said:

As a few involved crashing on private houses and the killing of civilians, it is not surprising that training was newsworthy.

I'm not sure it was especially newsworthy, but with the DORA restrictions in place it was probably one of the few bits of military news that could be reported on to almost pre-war standards. Only in the most extreme of circumstances would a coroners inquest be held in camera and without a jury, so in most cases reporting on these inquests and the police courts was the initial training step on a journalists career. There was also a ready market for such reports as column fillers for regional newspapers. Many of the local titles in Norfolk, (and probably most other places), were weeklies \ bi-weeklies, so report 5 or 6 incidents and the impression could well be that the UK based airforce was falling out of the sky in great numbers. Implausible yes but that doesn't stop such beliefs from taking hold. I have to admit after reading some editions heavily laced with such reports I did begin to wonder why anyone would subsequently apply to become a pilot \ air-crew.

Cheers,
Peter

[Perth Digger]

Peter

I would think that one-half (or more) of RFC/RAF deaths at home were non-operational flying/on ground deaths. My interest is in Training Squadron deaths only, because of the issue of good or bad teaching.

I don't know the ins and outs of changing DORA policy during the war, but my extensive reading of newspapers throughout the country does not suggest to me that editors were banned from publishing lists of deaths, In Memoriams, individual case histories and coroners' inquests. There are also several articles that mention the high number of deaths in particular Training squadrons at certain times. The one source where self-censorship occurred, relating to the fate of airmen, were the official communiqués after the spring of 1917.

Mike

[Perth Digger]

Quemerford

Are all those figures you gave casualties rather than fatalities?

Mike

[quemerford]

2 hours ago, Perth Digger said:

Quemerford

Are all those figures you gave casualties rather than fatalities?

Mike

Fatalities.

[quemerford]

3 hours ago, Perth Digger said:

I don't know the ins and outs of changing DORA policy during the war, but my extensive reading of newspapers throughout the country does not suggest to me that editors were banned from publishing lists of deaths, In Memoriams, individual case histories and coroners' inquests.

This is true: by contrast, in WW2 there was a very definite restriction on the amount and type of news that was released. In many cases new releases were only made if officially sanctioned and often new stories were provided via official sources.

 

In WW1 that situation was entirely different. Local reporters seem to have had carte blanche on what they could report, and in fact their lurid accounts of flying fatalities often make for difficult reading.