RFC/RNAS/RAF Training Deaths 100 years on.

[MikeMeech]

Hi

Many books on the air war mention the large numbers of deaths of 'pilots' during training in the RFC/RNAS/RAF during WW1, especially when they re-quote Denis Winter from 'The First of the Few' (1982), page 36, where he states:

"...official figures at the end of the war listed 14,166 dead pilots, of whom 8,000 had died while training in the UK."

Of course the 'official figures' did not list these figures at all as they were in 'The War in the Air' Appendices volume (1937), page 160 which has a total number of air service casualties from all causes as 16,623, 6,166 killed or died, 3,212 missing or interned (many would be classed as dead). However, this has not stopped recent books basically re-quoting the Winter figures, as in 'Reckless Fellows' (2015) by Edward Bujak, page4, which states:

"Shockingly, over half the 14,166 pilots who lost their lives in the war did so in training."

or 'First World War in the Air' (2012) by Phil Carradice, page 51, which comments:

"It is a sad fact that over 14,000 airmen lost their lives during the Great War. Amazingly, over 8,000 of these fatalities came from accidents during training."

What is amazing is that we do have an accurate picture of actual deaths available that authors apparently ignore (even if they have already ignored the actual official figures for some reason). 'Airman Died in the Great War 1914-1918' (DVD-ROM) has a searchable data base of all British and Commonwealth air service deaths, a total of 9,350,all ranks all causes men and women, so making 14,000 plus dead pilots a bit of a problem! We can also search for 'training deaths', which I have done a rough search for.

Going through the returns for 'Killed Whilst Flying', so accidents rather than operational losses gives 2,840 deaths. Looking through this total I have identified 1,565 that are probably 'training' deaths, although not all possibly due to deaths while on flying training (not just pilots but observers, gunners, wireless operators) as it includes some ack emmas and could be air tests etc. These are deaths from the training system around the world, not just the UK, including Canada (90 in Canada plus 35 during winter training in the US), Egypt, France and Malta. The deaths also include USAS personnel, some Russian trainees and one Frenchman who was attached to a training unit. Additionally there are 109 who 'Died of Injuries', again not all were probably caused in flying training accidents and it is possible there is an overlap with the previous number.

It is probable that the maximum total of those that died during training is 1,674 (possibly less). Although a 'high' figure to our eyes,this is rather different than 8,000 pilot fatalities in training that is regularly quoted. However, I wonder how much this latter figure will be quoted in books and other print media as well as TV and radio over this 100th anniversary period as it has much more 'impact' to illustrate the horrors of WW1?

Mike

[Errol Martyn]

" 'Reckless Fellows' (2015) by Edward Bujak, page4"

Reckless by title - author reckless by nature!

Errol

[quemerford]

Mike,

An interesting subject and one which deserves more widespread broadcast. I don't have Airmen Died to hand (mine sadly doesn't have anything other than a paper index!), but I'm fairly certain that it includes airmen who died as a result of the 1918-19 flu epidemic, but whose cause of death was unknown to the author. My researches have also uncovered a number of airmen who simply died of natural causes (taken from death certificates), so these could also be deducted from any total of 'deaths in training' - assuming that the latter term is meant to reflect fatalities due to flying training accidents.

I do recall seeing files at TNA which detail monthly flying training deaths and I'd suggest that these would be a good starting point for sifting out the chaff in order to arrive at a representative figure.

EDIT: Found the file (I think there are others): AIR 1/680/21/13/2207: a good example of how statistics can be misinterpreted is a return for November 1918, a month during which '73' personnel were killed in, "Fatal accidents during training at home". But the figure is broken down further to exclude 8 testing fatalities, 8 more while ferrying and another 7 described as, "...on duty other than training". The final figure for the month was thus 50 rather than the total of 73.

This of course would not include those in training overseas, so clearly a bit more work required to reach a final figure.

[MikeMeech]

Mike,

An interesting subject and one which deserves more widespread broadcast. I don't have Airmen Died to hand (mine sadly doesn't have anything other than a paper index!), but I'm fairly certain that it includes airmen who died as a result of the 1918-19 flu epidemic, but whose cause of death was unknown to the author. My researches have also uncovered a number of airmen who simply died of natural causes (taken from death certificates), so these could also be deducted from any total of 'deaths in training' - assuming that the latter term is meant to reflect fatalities due to flying training accidents.

I do recall seeing files at TNA which detail monthly flying training deaths and I'd suggest that these would be a good starting point for sifting out the chaff in order to arrive at a representative figure.

EDIT: Found the file (I think there are others): AIR 1/680/21/13/2207: a good example of how statistics can be misinterpreted is a return for November 1918, a month during which '73' personnel were killed in, "Fatal accidents during training at home". But the figure is broken down further to exclude 8 testing fatalities, 8 more while ferrying and another 7 described as, "...on duty other than training". The final figure for the month was thus 50 rather than the total of 73.

This of course would not include those in training overseas, so clearly a bit more work required to reach a final figure.

Hi

I tried to err on the side of caution as I don't want to be seen as 'underplaying' deaths in training. Where 'Airmen Died' did not have any detail except it was at a training unit then I have them as a training death, also those that were given the unit as a Training Wing rather than TS, TDS etc. are included as it was probably a death in training. The figure I have put down include overseas training. At present, as I am working on other WW1 matters, I have not got time to go through the full records and individual cases in detail, however, authors repeating the very high figures has become a little bit annoying and I thought I would do a rough check on an approximate total for training deaths. For training in Egypt 'Cross & Cockade International', Spring 2016 edition had an article by Ray Vann and Mike O'Connor 'Wings Over Suez - The History of RFC/RAF Training in Egypt 1916-1919' and that includes 'RFC & RAF Officer and Cadet fatalities in Egypt 1916-1919' from all causes.

Mike

[Dolphin]

Mike

Some years ago, I did some research on fatalities in the Australian Flying Corps.

213 members of the AFC died during, or as a result of participation in, The Great War.

50 pilots and trainee pilots died in training accidents, including a few who lost their lives after the Armistice: 16 were in Sopwith Camels, 10 in RE8s, 10 in Avro 504s, 5 in Sopwith Pups, 3 in BE2 variants, 2 in SE5as, 2 in Maurice Farmans, and 1 each in a Martinsyde G102 and a Sopwith 1½ Strutter.

44 pilots were killed in action: 11 in Sopwith Camels, 8 in RE8s, 5 in SE5as, 5 in DH 5s, 4 in Sopwith Snipes, 4 in Bristol Fighters, 2 in BE2es, 1 in a BE12a, 1 in a Caudron G.III and 1 in a Martinsyde G102, plus 1 each in a Sopwith Pup and a Sopwith 1½ Strutter while seconded to the RFC.

I hope this is interesting.

Gareth

[MikeMeech]

Mike

Some years ago, I did some research on fatalities in the Australian Flying Corps.

213 members of the AFC died during, or as a result of participation in, The Great War.

50 pilots and trainee pilots died in training accidents, including a few who lost their lives after the Armistice: 16 were in Sopwith Camels, 10 in RE8s, 10 in Avro 504s, 5 in Sopwith Pups, 3 in BE2 variants, 2 in SE5as, 2 in Maurice Farmans, and 1 each in a Martinsyde G102 and a Sopwith 1½ Strutter.

44 pilots were killed in action: 11 in Sopwith Camels, 8 in RE8s, 5 in SE5as, 5 in DH 5s, 4 in Sopwith Snipes, 4 in Bristol Fighters, 2 in BE2es, 1 in a BE12a, 1 in a Caudron G.III and 1 in a Martinsyde G102, plus 1 each in a Sopwith Pup and a Sopwith 1½ Strutter while seconded to the RFC.

I hope this is interesting.

Gareth

Hi

That is interesting. 'Airmen Died' has a total of AFC dead as 98 (37 killed whilst flying), however, a total of air service dead who originate in Australia is 270 (108 killed whilst flying), that would include the 'AFC' dead, but includes Australians with RFC/RNAS/RAF units. Again just search totals rather than looking closely at individual incidents or people.

Mike

[Airshipped]

I don't have my copy of Trevor Henshaw's excellent TSTBII to hand but have a few spreadsheets here. From what I can see there were several separate sets of returns compiled, which can give rise to the potential for double-counting, e.g. you'll have seen already from the RAF Museum's casualty cards that there could be a fatality and a survivor in a fatal incident involving a two-seater. Anyway I'm digressing a bit: a good example of casualty returns would be the following file at Kew AIR 1/11/15/1/38.

I'm trying to attach an example of a Form 356, so apologies in advance re image size, but there was provision in the reports for 'fatal' to be recorded.

[Airshipped]

Sorry, file size wrong, so attaching an example of where it asks for fatalities, and whether a report was filed for the Accidents Committee.

[mickdavis]

Mike - These are the flying/aeroplane related accidents for November 1918, as shown by the RAFM Casualty Cards:

181101 1.11.1918 Arbuthnot Lennox Stanley Capt killed 21st Wing WT Flt BF C4774 77/WD22400 low stunting, undercarriage hit gound, zoomed, stalled, crashed 2Lt V Scholes also killed 181101 1.11.1918 Scholes Arthur Vincent 2Lt killed 21st Wing WT Flt BF C4774 2/F/77/WD22400 undercarriage hit ground when low stunting, zoomed, stalled and nose-dived Capt S Arbuthnot also killed 181101 1.11.1918 Harvey Leslie Richard Flt Cdt injured 31 TDS DH9 D5725 5326/WD23000 undercarraige hit Avro C707, sationary, on take-off, both machines wrecked 2Lt CC Warboys also injured 181101 1.11.1918 Worboys Cyril Charles 2Lt injured 31 TDS DH9 D5725 5326/WD23000 undercarriage struck stationary Avro C707 on take-off, wrecking both machines Flt Cdt LR Harvey also injured 181101 1.11.1918 Fowgies Frederick John Flt Cdt injured 37 TDS DH6 B2841 WD5120 spun in 181101 1.11.1918 Whitmore GF Major injured 7 TDS Avro C5864 6601/WD12469 RH wing struck tree 2Lt JD Swallow uninjured 181101 1.11.1918 Reid AJ 2Lt killed 94 Sqn SE5a D6032 2290/WD33399 flat turn off ground 181101 1.11.1918 Dubue Marcel C Capt injured Fleet SAFG Camel 7255 1291/WD29890 flew into hillside in mist 181102 2.11.1918 Pick Alfred James Lt killed 204 TDS Camel E1524 3860/WD41615 unable to pull out of vertical dive on taget unit unclear on card 181102 2.11.1918 Eason Harold Richard Sutton Lt injured 46 TDS Pup B6127 Clerget 1051/WD11053 stalled on climbing turn, spun and crashed 181103 3.11.1918 Shorrock Walter 2Lt killed 4 TDS Dolphin C8127 13535 spun in from sharp LH turn 181104 4.11.1918 Mitchell Frank Lewis Lt injured 3 FS DH9 D1033 WD23507 stalled and spun in 2Lt TT Williams also injured 181104 4.11.1918 Williams Talbot Taggart Lt injured 3 FS DH9 D1033 WD23507 stalled and spun in Lt FL Mitchell also injured 181104 4.11.1918 Dobbin John Cuthbert Flt Cdt injured 30 TDS Avro 8868 Mono 30848/WD20914 half roll and failed to pull out of dive Lt J Boyden also injured 181104 4.11.1918 Boydell John Lt injured 30 TDS Avro D8868 Mono 30848/WD20914 dived in from half roll Flt Cdt JG Dobbin also injured 181104 4.11.1918 Wood Oswald Edward Ernest Flt Cdt injured 31 TDS Avro E3685 Le Rhone 29046/35216 misjudged landing in strong wind 181104 4.11.1918 de Bath Henry Michael Lt killed 56 TDS Avro D8916 mid-air collision 181104 4.11.1918 Sutherland Hugh Capt killed 58 TDS BE2c 8209 1947/WD14543 mid-air collision with Avro D8916 (Lt de Bath) Flt Cdt J Hops injured 181104 4.11.1918 Hops James Flt Cdt injured 58 TDS BE2c 8409 1947/WD14543 apparent mid-air collision withAvro D8916 Capt K Sutherland killed 181104 4.11.1918 York Cyril Arthur Flt Cdt injured 59 TDS BE2e C7079 WD2831 lost flying speed on turn and spun from 500ft card says Shotwick, not Scopwick 181105 5.11.1918 Casserley Cyyril Ignatious Flt Cdt fatally injured 10 TDS Avro D7127 Clerget 1059/WD6270 spun into ground Lt JE Hunt injured 181105 5.11.1918 Hunt John Edward Lt injured 10 TDS Avro D7127 Clerget 1059/WD6270 spun in Flt Cdt CJ Casserly also injured 181105 5.11.1918 Angeloff Claude George Sgt killed 11 TDS DH9 C2902 55451 spun, nose-dived in, caught fire 181105 5.11.1918 Lakocco F AM injured 11 TDS attached ex 841st Aero Sqn USAS bombs exploded after crash 181105 5.11.1918 Bengston CE AM injured 216th Aero Sqn USAS attached 11 TDS bombs exploded after crash 181105 5.11.1918 Farfan John Henry Luis Lt injured 33 Sqn Avro E3287 Le Rhone 29669 flat turn near ground 181105 5.11.1918 Tennant Hugh AM1 injured 34 TDS Avro H2185 propeller accident 181105 5.11.1918 File Charles William PFO injured 43 TDS Avro F2290 Clerget 52/WD44122 stalled in forced landing 181105 5.11.1918 Ryder FG AM3 killed 52 TDS DH9 C1239 5273/WD22967 flat turn at c.100ft after take-off, stalla nd nose-dived in, caught fire, crew burnt 2Lt GH Woodland also killed 181105 5.11.1918 Woodland George Henry 2Lt killed 52 TDS DH9 C1239 5273/WD22967 flat turn at 100ft after take-off, stalled, nose-dived in and caught fire - crew burnt AM3 FG Ryder also killed 181105 5.11.1918 Bowes Harold Leslie Flt Cdt injured 59 TDS BE2e C7183 WD14565 lost speed in flat turn and spun in 181105 5.11.1918 Drewett Robert William Lt injured 90 Sqn Avro E3076 Clerget WD11594 engine cut when low down 2Lt EW Highton OK 181105 5.11.1918 Cantillon Samuel Flt Cdt injured Avro engine failure 181106 6.11.1918 Ruben Earl Victor 1Lt USAS injured 1 FS Camel B7470 5288/WD45570 got into slipstream of opposing machine in mock combat, spun in to a wood 181106 6.11.1918 Yearley Henry Thomas 2Lt injured 1 FS Camel E7265 1289/WD29888 engine failed on take-off, turned over in forced landing 181106 6.11.1918 Grant William Sgt injured 10 TDS DH9 B9403 6782/WD24456 bad landing on rough ground 181106 6.11.1918 Robson Clarkson 2Lt injured 12 TDS Avro E3721 Le Rhone WD73668 engine failed on take-off 181106 6.11.1918 Binns John Simpson Bower Lt killed 138 Sqn BF F4576 RR 3/264/1881/WD51965 forced landing into trees Sgt WH Martin (observer) also killed 181106 6.11.1918 Martin WH Sgt Mech killed 138 Sqn BF F4576 fal/3/264/WD51965 forced landing into trees Lt JSB Binns also killed 181106 6.11.1918 Carpenter Robert Pte (USAS) injured 167th Aero Sqn USAS propeller accident CC says Salisbury - Old Sarum? 181106 6.11.1918 Watts Norman Silverwood AM3 injured 3 TDS propeller accident 181106 6.11.1918 Dixon John Flt Cdt injured 44 TS Avro D5857 Clerget R2150/WD15279 stalled on climbing turn 2Lt CM Barter also injured 181106 6.11.1918 Barter Chaeles Makesley 2Lt injured 44 TS Avro D5897 Clerget R1250/WD15279 stalled on climbing turn Flt Cdt John Dixon also injured 181106 6.11.1918 Holman CE Capt injured 50 Sqn Camel F2122 Le Rhone 53901 failed to clear railway cutting after overshot landing 181106 6.11.1918 Jassby Harry Walter 2Lt killed 54 TDS Camel 1422 20258/WD43225 mid air collision 181106 6.11.1918 Hogg James 2Lt injured Avro E3611 Mono 30091/WD2234 error of judgement landing on first solo 181107 7.11.1918 Bailey Archie Cpl injured 11 TDS Avro E1639 Le Rhone 102107 crashed in a spiral dive Lt GC Stanfield (pilot) also injured 181107 7.11.1918 Stanfield Charles Joseph Lt injured 11 TDS Avro E1639 Le Rhone 102107 spiral dive Cpl A Bailey also injured 181107 7.11.1918 Scott Edgar Stanley 2Lt killed 28 TDS Avro D2040 Clerget 20814/WD14146 struck telegraph wires and crashed 2Lt James Tough also injured 181107 7.11.1918 Tough James 2Lt injured 28 TDS Avro D2040 Clerget 20814/WD14146 struck telegraph wires and crashed 2Lt ES Scott (instructor) killed 181107 7.11.1918 Powrie Ernest Alfred 2Lt injured 3 TDS Camel E7275 R52789/WD54888 turned with failing engine and stalled 181107 7.11.1918 Hull Frederick Thomas Sgt injured 6 TDS Avro E3328 Mono 2192 stalled at 200ft and spun in 181107 7.11.1918 Travers John Ramsey Lt injured CDP FK8 H4470 2076/WD75685 overshot Hendon aerodrome and ran into Welsh Harp reservoir serial given as F4470 181107 7.11.1918 Wigfield Pte injured Polegate Airship SSZ44 propeller accident 181108 8.11.1918 Molesworth Reed Dysart Lt injured 14 TDS Avro D7184 Clerget 11240/WD61620 struck ridge, rolled over and crashed Sgt EH Yate also injured 181108 8.11.1918 Tate Earl H Sgt injured 14 TDS attached ex 282nd Aero Sqn USAS Avro D7184 Clerget 11240/WD61620 struck a ridge, rolled over and crashed Lt RD Molesworth also injured. Card gives serial B7184 181108 8.11.1918 Birch Edward Lt injured 15 AAP DH9 D1210 WD25334 stalled on landing Lt GR Whittaker also injured 181108 8.11.1918 Whittaker George Roy Lt injured 15 AAP DH9 D1210 WD25234 stalled when landing Lt E Birch also injured 181108 8.11.1918 Beard Donald W 2Lt injured 22 TDS Avro Clerget 1/130/345/WD29943 engine choked and machine lost speed and was too low to recover 181108 8.11.1918 Archibald Wesley Alexander 2Lt killed 29 TDS Dolphin C8061 120772/WD73859 stalled on take-off and dived in 181108 8.11.1918 Feather Stanley Winston Flt Sgt injured 3 TDS Avro F2600 propeller accident 181108 8.11.1918 Merrill Volney Norris Flt Cdt killed 3 TDS Camel F9417 2443/WD35208 vertical dive from 600-900ft 181108 8.11.1918 Critchley George Edgar Flt Cdt killed 42 TS Avro D2117 Clerget 5524/WD53642 not apparent 181108 8.11.1918 Grimes Leslie Flt Cdt injured 51 TDS Avro F2553 Clerget 1155/7768 stalled on turn 181108 8.11.1918 Hill John William 2Lt injured 6 TDS Avro E3323 Mono 36637 no engine pressure, tried to return but stalled and spun in 181108 8.11.1918 Scarson RG Lt injured Pool of Pilots DH9 6491/WD24168 lost height on turn Lt AAC de Jey uninjured 181109 9.11.1918 Elsworth John Campbell 2Lt injured 15 TDS Avro E4261 Le Rhone WD59789 engine failure 181109 9.11.1918 Tainton Cecil John Shipstone 2Lt injured 15 TDS DH9 E9053 WD25110 spun in from flat turn 181109 9.11.1918 Savidge Harold Flt Cdt injured 50 TDS Avro E4202 Clerget 1636 mis-judged landing and flew into the ground 181109 9.11.1918 Crook Hernry Edward Flt Cdt killed 50 TDS Camel F2027 14046 wings folded back pulling out of engine-on dive onto ground targets 181109 9.11.1918 Hinton Francis Athol 2Lt killed 51 TDS Avro F8719 Le Rhone 35513/9162 stalled from LH turn during forced landing 181109 9.11.1918 Gibson Vernon Francis Flt Cdt killed 51 TDS Camel F1946 2786/61582 nose-dived in, pilot probablt fainted 181109 9.11.1918 Young Clarence Earl PFO fatally injured CFS SE5a E1323 Hisso WD864 spun in from RH turn 181109 9.11.1918 Cormie AL 2Lt injured SEAFIS Avro C5811 Mono 31233/WD41147 stalled on gliding turn when attempting to land 181109 9.11.1918 Groves John 2Lt injured Camel 52798/WD54697 landed due to darkness and crashed 181110 10.11.1918 Wills Oliver Byerley Walter Lt fatally injured ES Butley BF D8030 409/WD32604 unknown Capt HJO Windsor uninjured 181110 10.11.1918 Shales Sgt injured Felixstowe Felixstowe F2A N4099 propeller accident 181111 11.11.1918 MacDonald Allan William 2Lt killed 1 TDS Avro E330 Clerget 5148/WD38525 stalled on climbing turn and nose-dived in Flt Cdt ER Spurrier injured 181111 11.11.1918 Spurrier Edward Reginald Flt Cdt injured 1 TDS Avro E330 Clerget 5148/WD38525 stalled on climbing turn and nose-dived in Lt AW MacDonald (instructor) killed 181111 11.11.1918 Brown Leonard Frank Sgt injured 2 TDS Avro C5949 Clerget WD44124 flat turn near ground on take-off 181111 11.11.1918 Smith Herbert Charles 2Lt injured 40 TDS RE8 B824 31288/WD21189 engine cut out, side-slipped and crashed 181111 11.11.1918 Duggan George Wilfred Lt injured 6 TDS Avro E1866 Mono 6669/WD6690 not apparent Pte NC Lubs also injured 181111 11.11.1918 Lubs Norman Christian Pte injured 6 TDS attached ex 315th Aero Sqn USAS Avro E1866 Mono 6669/WD6690 not apparent Lt GW Duggan also injured 181112 12.11.1918 Sorley Alexander 2Lt injured 34 TDS Camel B7136 R1986/WD15115 stalled after engine failure near the ground 181112 12.11.1918 Edwards ST Capt fatally injured 38 TDS Pup B4181 6609/WD8006 failed to exit spinning nose dive 181112 12.11.1918 Rowell William Cecil Capt injured 50 Sqn Camel F2124 Le Rhone WD102235 collided with a hangar 181112 12.11.1918 Matthews Harry Cecil Flt Cdt killed CFS B Sqn Camel E1416 WD34727 lost speed when turning in to land and spun in 181112 12.11.1918 Henley Clement Charles Pte injured Avro 8883 propeller accident D8883 was 49 TDS, F8883 unknown 181112 12.11.1918 Bannister K 2Lt injured Pup B5352 35157/WD28972 hit tree when low flying machine had been with 34 TDS summer 1918 181113 13.11.1918 Booth Lawrence Howard 2Lt fatally injured 105 Sqn RE8 181113 13.11.1918 Bradshaw TG Cpl killed 105 Sqn RE8 crash 2Lt JM Wilson also killed 181113 13.11.1918 Gaudie Robert AM2 injured 105 Sqn RE8 crashed 2Lt LH Booth also injured 181113 13.11.1918 Wilson James M 2Lt killed 105 Sqn RE8 mid-air collision with another 105 Sqn RE8 (Lt LH Booth) Cpl Bradshaw also killed 181113 13.11.1918 Prosser FRN AM2 injured 15 AAP DH9 1220 propeller accident 181113 13.11.1918 Bolton Stanley Sgt killed 28 TDS Camel F6381 Clerget WD61596 got into flat spin on back and crashed 181113 13.11.1918 Hodgson Emery Flt Cdt injured 29 TDS Avro E1230 Le Rhone 53384/WD36196 stall on turn 181113 13.11.1918 Turner Roland Walter Lt injured 5 TDS Avro E3100 Clerget 951/WD3049 undercarriage caught the top plane of a taxiing DH6 181113 13.11.1918 Hoskin EN Lt injured CDP Camel F1539 Mono 55262 engine failure hospital at Ipswich - delivery flight? 181114 14.11.1918 Mees Ian Rudolph Lt killed 11 TDS Avro E1713 Le Rhone 101890 mid-air collision Sgt JR Williams also killed 181114 14.11.1918 Williams John Rufus Sgt killed 11 TDS Avro E1713 Le Rhone 101890 mid-air collision Lt JR Mees (pilot) also killed 181114 14.11.1918 Oliver George Clavering Flt Cdt injured 11 TDS Avro E9327 Le Rhone 101972 mid-air collision, crashed and caught fire Capt CE Abell killed 181114 14.11.1918 Abbell Claude Elwin Capt killed 11 TDS Avro E9327 101972 mid-air collision Flt Cdt GC Oliver injured 181114 14.11.1918 Lenihen John Harold 2Lt killed 14 TDS DH9 C1315 6310/WD23984 stalled and spun on landing, pilot probably adjusting tailplane 2Lt HC Mitchell (instructor) injured 181114 14.11.1918 Mitchell Harry Clive 2Lt injured 14 TDS DH9 C1315 6310/WD23984 stalled on landing approach, pilot probably adjusting tailplane 2Lt JH Lenihen also injured 181114 14.11.1918 Thompson J Pte injured 198 NTS Avro hit by trolley into which the Avro collided while taxiing between flares 181114 14.11.1918 Rayner Archibald Edward 2Lt injured 204 TDS Avro D8923 Clerget 30853 engine cut and machine stalled, crashed 15 miles from Eastchurch 181114 14.11.1918 Harrison RS 2Lt injured 25 TDS Avrop C5992 Clerget WD43295 stalled at 100ft 181114 14.11.1918 McDougall Edward John 2Lt injured 37 TDS BF C918 Arab 2845/WD26970 nose-dived in 2Lt LE Aldrich also injured 181114 14.11.1918 Aldrich Leo Edwin 2Lt fatally injured 37 TDS BF Arab C918 2824/WD26970 nose-dived in 2Lt EJ McDougall injured 181114 14.11.1918 Leask Ralph 2Lt injured 43 TDS Pup B5271 53541/WD59741 exited spin too close to the ground 181114 14.11.1918 Webster Andrew Reginald 2Lt injured 45 TDS BF B8946 WD18425 mis-judged landing 181114 14.11.1918 Matthews Charles Lt (USAS) injured 8 AAP Camel C2393 Mono 52712 lost flying speed on turn when trying to land Serial C3293 181115 15.11.1918 Phillips EC 2Lt injured 13 TDS Avro D4519 1960/WD15059 mis-judged landing speed on first solo 181115 15.11.1918 Folkard WL 2Lt killed 138 Sqn BF F4290 Fal 3/264/199 hit tree on take-off Lt JYY Williamson injured 181115 15.11.1918 Williamson Thomas Wesley Lt injured 138 Sqn BF F4290 3/F/264/1999 hit a tree on take-off 2Lt WL Faulkland killed 181115 15.11.1918 Hurton RGH Lt injured 138 Sqn propeller accident 181116 16.11.1918 Mutch Harvey George Flt Cdt injured 11 TDS Avro E9325 Le Rhone 35972 nose-dived and crashed 2Lt HG Brownell uninjured 181116 16.11.1918 Preece Brazel Gordon Flt Cdt killed 36 TDS RE8 C2524 32725/WD58144 not apparent 181116 16.11.1918 Songhurst Charles Albert Lt injured 49 TDS DH9 D9820 7635/WD25309 turned at 500ft with too much rudder, stalled and spun in 181116 16.11.1918 Pitchford HG Sgt injured Avro 2805/WD61573 130hp engine - Clerget? 181116 16.11.1918 Jackson DFD Lt injured Pup 53204/WD45815 failed to exit a spin 181117 17.11.1918 Williamson James Sydney 2Lt injured 37 TDS Avro B7961 Le Rhone 10165/WD18065 spun off gliding turn at 30ft 181117 17.11.1918 Destrube Leon George 2Lt injured 40 TS Camel C190 45606 throttle control jammed and machine overturned in forced landing 181117 17.11.1918 Schutz Clarence James 2Lt injured 45 TDS Avro C5813 Mono mis-judged landing 181118 18.11.1918 Scarr Geoffrey Campbell Lt killed 1 (Obs) SAG BF E2484 1/F/205/WD10404 forced landing 2Lt RF Allen (observer) also killed 181118 18.11.1918 Allen Raymond Francis 2Lt killed 1 (Obs) SAG BF E2484 RR 1/F/205/WD10404 crashed from low altitude during forced landing Lt GC Scarr also killed 181118 18.11.1918 Beattie James Leonard 2Lt injured 23 TDS Avro C5952 Clerget WD14895 forced landing 181118 18.11.1918 Bowen WG Sgt killed 23 TDS propeller accident 181118 18.11.1918 Schwindt Oscar Mutar Flt Cdt injured 24 TDS Avro C5897 Clerget 2452/WD14196 dived into the ground 181118 18.11.1918 Gardside Jack Randall 2Lt killed 3 FS Camel E7253 WD54878 spun into ground 181118 18.11.1918 Russell Henry Thornbury Fox Capt killed 4 TDS Dolphin C4011 WD13531 spun into the ground 181118 18.11.1918 Chapman Cecil William Flt Cdt killed 57 TDS Avro D8920 Clerget 21360/WD45920 not apparent Flt Cdt W Newton also injured 181118 18.11.1918 Newton William Flt Cdt injured 57 TDS Avro D8920 Clerget 21360/WD45920 not apparent Flt Cdt C Chapman killed 181118 18.11.1918 Little Reginald Keith 2Lt killed MOS Eastchurch BE2c 9954 2112/WD2899 mid-air collision Lt GE Wodehouse also killed 181118 18.11.1918 Wodehouse Charles Ewart Lt killed MOS Eastchurch BE2c 9954 2112/WD2899 mid-air collision 2Lt RK Little (pupil) also killed 181119 19.11.1918 Johnson Jack 2Lt injured 2 FS Camel B7451 WD15231 stalled on take-off and nose dived in 181120 20.11.1918 D'Arcy William AM1 injured 26 TDS propeller accident 181120 20.11.1918 Kettlewood Arthur John Flt Cdt killed 27 TDS BF 10441 turned into aerodrome with engine off, stalled and dived in 181120 20.11.1918 Nicholas Charles Earl 2Lt injured 42 TDS Snipe E8307 32986/WD43567 not apparent 181120 20.11.1918 Page Walter Starke Flt Cdt injured 51 TDS Avro D6293 Clerget R/130/11539 not apparent 181120 20.11.1918 Sanderson William Thomas Flt Cdt injured 51 TDS Avro E2933 Clerget 1173/7786 stalled when attempting to land 181121 21.11.1918 McGrath Edward Leslie Sgt injured 44 TDS Avro 4352 Le Rhone engine failure could be B4358, C4358 or E4358 181121 21.11.1918 Horridge John Leslie Capt killed 91 Sqn Dolphin D5298 stalled after engine failure at 20ft 181121 21.11.1918 Kirton Ralph Emray Lt fatally injured SARD Dolphin E4718 40042/WD39121 crashed in low roll 181122 22.11.1918 Haspinall Robert Thomas Sgt fatally injured 1 SNBD DH9 C2171 24302 engine fell out in air Sgt WW Parker injured 181122 22.11.1918 Parker William Wade Sgt injured 1 SNBD DH9 C2171 24302 engine fell out in air Sgt RT Haspinall fatally injured 181122 22.11.1918 MacDonald Urban Troy 2Lt injured 157 Sqn Salamander F6504 33084/WD48791 failure to flatten out 181122 22.11.1918 Butler JHJ Flt Cdt injured 29 TDS Avro E9229 Le Rhone 56328/WD80688 crashed on take-off 181122 22.11.1918 Stevens Charles John Flt Cdt injured 29 TDS Avro E9262 Le Rhone 56456/WD80738 flat turn downwind 181122 22.11.1918 Bowyer RAJ AM3 injured 55 TDS propeller accident 181122 22.11.1918 Newbury Henry Herbert Benjamin Flt Cdt injured 61 Sqn Camel E5130 Le Rhone 48173 engine cut out while attempting to turn back to aerodrome 181122 22.11.1918 Evans Percy Lewis Lt killed WT School BE2e C7164 E2240/WD10791 not apparent Pte JD Werdt also killed 181122 22.11.1918 Werdt Irving Daniel Pte killed WT School attached ex 472nd Aero Sqn USAS BE2e C7164 E2240/WD10791 passenger possibly grasped control column and prevented pilot from recovering from a stall Lt PL Evans also killed 181123 23.11.1918 Duerden Irvine Wilkinson AM3 injured 1 TDS Avro D4500 Clerget R2085/WD15214 engine failed at 50ft and the machine struck a tree Arthur Malcolm Broad also injured 181123 23.11.1918 Perrin Herbert Victor 2Lt injured 204 TDS Camel B5576 WD41582 apparently stalled on turn 181123 23.11.1918 Graham William l'Estrange Lt injured 24 TDS forced landing following engine failure 181123 23.11.1918 Green Frederick AM1 killed 27 TDS BF RR 1793/WD51221 exited spin with insufficient height 2Lt R Mundy (pilot) also killed 181123 23.11.1918 Mundy Clarence Reginald Lt killed 27 TDS BF RR 1793/WD51221 left a spin with insufficient height to clear ground AM1 F Green also killed 181123 23.11.1918 Broad Arthur Malcolm 2Lt injured Avro D4500 Clerget 2085/WD15214 engine failed at 50ft, dived in and hit tree at Uppingham, near Wittering AM3 DI Wilkinson OK 181124 24.11.1918 Halfpenny William Henry Lt killed 49 TDS DH9 D1218 25273 crashed in fog Lt MWH MacKay also killed 181124 24.11.1918 MacKay Malcolm WH Lt killed 49 TDS DH9 D1218 25273 crashed in fog Lt WH Halfpenny also killed 181125 25.11.1918 Hughes John Flt Cdt fatally injured 1 FS DH9 D1374 6877/WD24551 engine failure Lt KF Piper also injured. No serial prefix but C1374 was with 57 TDS Cranwell 181125 25.11.1918 Piper Kenneth Frederick Lt injured 1 FS DH9 D1374 6877/WD24537 engine failure and caught fire Flt Cdt J Hughes fatally injured 181125 25.11.1918 Stedman RT Lt injured 2 AAP Pup C323 collided on take-off with an Avro which was taxiing 181125 25.11.1918 Dugan JI Lt injured 22 TDS Avro C5929 WD43803 engine failure on take-off 181125 25.11.1918 Martingell Russell George Flt Cdt injured 28 TDS Avro D8928 Clerget 1628/WD6424 stalled during landing and dived in 181125 25.11.1918 Smith Alonza SGt injured 29 TDS Avro F2619 Clerget R1742/WD14871 propeller accident 181125 25.11.1918 Van der Spuy Jacob Samuel Van Keenan 2Lt killed 3 TDS Camel F4038 1031/WD80536 stalled on low RH turn and spun in 181125 25.11.1918 Godley Robert George Rhodes Flt Cdt injured 30 TDS Avro E3513 Mono 31065/WD36648 spun in from 300ft 181125 25.11.1918 McAlister Clarence Monay Flt Cdt injured 54 TDS Camel B5735 WD14120 stalled on turn and spun in 181126 26.11.1918 Whitham JH Lt killed 1 ASD DH4 F6078 crashed at Southgate, Middlesex; had left 1 ASD at 14.00 26.11.1918 Prince Antoine of Orleans (not RAF) also killed 181126 26.11.1918 Jardine William Sgt killed 40 TS Camel F3209 BR1 21668 stalled and spun when landing near aerodrome, machine burst into flames 181126 26.11.1918 Bell Robert McMillan Flt Cdt injured 44 TDS Avro E1661 Le Rhone 50667/WD48153 mid air collision Sgt JR Bootle also injured 181126 26.11.1918 Booth John Rodley Lt injured 44 TDS Avro E1661 Le Rhone 50667/WD48153 mid-air collision 181126 26.11.1918 Jessel Clement Edward Lt injured 50 TDS Camel F2095 43798 undercarriage caught the top plane of a stationary machine 181126 26.11.1918 Parsons Frederick William AM1 injured MOS Leysdown DH9 D3117 24285 propeller accident 181127 27.11.1918 Highet William AM3 injured 201 TDS Avro D7089 Clerget 5493/56322 propeller accident 181127 27.11.1918 Buckley Joseph Arnold Sgt killed 4 TDS Avro D4522 Mono WD4192 mid air collision 181127 27.11.1918 Jukes Sidney Norman Lt killed 4 TDS Dolphin C4101 WD3325a mid-air collision, crashed in field adjoining aerodrome 181127 27.11.1918 Clarke Ernest George 2Lt fatally injured 42 TS Camel F9576 3678/WD41525 struck fence when low flying 181127 27.11.1918 Thorogood Thomas Frank 2Lt injured 42 TS Camel H8253 1503/WD14632 stalled on turn at low altitude with engine throttled down 181127 27.11.1918 Craddock Hubert Charles 2Lt killed 45 TDS BF C4874 Fal/2/149/WD22415 engine cut out, stalled and nose-dived 181127 27.11.1918 Craib Charles 2Lt injured 96 Sqn Avro E4168 Le Rhone 52732 engine failed, crashed in forced landing 2Lt JW New also injured 181127 27.11.1918 New John William 2Lt injured 96 Sqn Avro E4168 Le Rhone 52732 engine failed, crashed in forced landing 2Lt C Craib also injured 181127 27.11.1918 Graham William Leonard Lt injured Avro Clerget R1962/WD15091 forced landing after engine failure 181128 28.11.1918 Lilley John Eric Sgt killed 1 FS SE5a E3954 Hisso 900/WD8475 stalled on turn, spun in and burst into flames 181128 28.11.1918 Henderson William Douglas Flt Cdt killed 32 TDS Camel F4207 50980/WD3914 seat belt broke when stunting, pilot thrown out 181128 28.11.1918 Heney John James 2Lt injured 41 TDS Avro D6259 Mono WD41129 front control column caught in belt 181129 29.11.1918 Bertrand John Gilbert Lt injured 36 Sqn Pup B5906 Le Rhone 35154/WD28939 propeller accident 181129 29.11.1918 Millhouse Archie Percival Flt Cdt killed 4 TDS Dolphin C4143 WD92681 spun in 181130 30.11.1918 Davison Samuel Lt killed 112 Sqn Camel F2090 Le Rhone WD46189 not apparent 181130 30.11.1918 Morris Corbett 2Lt killed 204 TDS Camel F4193 WD2457 not apparent 181130 30.11.1918 Melville John Turner Flt Cdt killed 23 TDS DH9 D9805 in ambulance, proceeding to a crash, when hit by the DH9 which was landing

[MikeMeech]

Hi Mick

 

As is usual from you that is some impressive detail.

 

Mike

[quemerford]

...still waiting for the RE.8 monograph!

 

(here's hoping at least  )

[John(txic)]

Did someone say RE 8 monograph?

 

Ex digitae!

[Andy Bird]

Mike,

Currently writing "Fur Goggles and Full Throttle" - Airmen of 1 School of Military Aeronautics 1915 to 1918 - on the forth chapter

Despite it being a "ground training school" with an aerodrome set up at Coley Park at least ten accidents I know of happened there during the period. Two of which were photographed. With 30,000+ men passing through I'm surprised more weren't recorded.

Kind Regards

Andy Bird

[MikeMeech]

13 hours ago, Andy Bird said:

Mike,

Currently writing "Fur Goggles and Full Throttle" - Airmen of 1 School of Military Aeronautics 1915 to 1918 - on the forth chapter

Despite it being a "ground training school" with an aerodrome set up at Coley Park at least ten accidents I know of happened there during the period. Two of which were photographed. With 30,000+ men passing through I'm surprised more weren't recorded.

Kind Regards

Andy Bird

Hi

 

'Airmen Died' appears to have no one down as killed whilst flying for No. 1 School of Military Aeronautics/School of Aeronautics, whether any were injured would have to come from another source. 'Airmen Died' has 13 people on its list for this organisation:

FRANSHAM, Agnes May, 15323, Worker, WRAF (QMAAC) 16.03.1916. Died Cause Not Known.

MANN, Charles Findlay, 42757, AM 2nd Class, RFC 10.02.1917.  Meningitis.

PATON, Frank, 23906, AM 1st Class, RFC 21.02.1917. Acute Laryngitis.

 

HITCHMOUGH, John, Eric, Cadet, RAF 15.07.1918. DCNK.

KNELL, Harry Ernest, Watson, 61036, Pte 1st Class, RAF 27.08.18. DCNK.

MACDONALD, George, Oxley, 2nd. Lt. RAF 01.05.1918. Accident, drowned in river Thames.

MACLAREN, John Augustine, 183101, Cadet, RAF 29.10.1918. Died Natural Causes.

POMEROY C.D.W. 18306, AM 1st Class, RAF 18.07.1918. DCNK.

PRANCE, John Edward, 2nd. Lt. (Technical Officer), RAF 24.06.18. Died of Influenza.

PRITCHARD, Robert, Owen, 2nd. Lt. RAF 06.11.1918. Died of Pneumonia.

SEMPLE, Franklyn, Marmion, Joseph, Cadet, RAF 30.10.1918. DCNK.

STANTON, Philip, Cornelius, Harrison, Cadet, RAF 29.10.1918. DCNK.

TUCKEY, Charles, Henry, 136157, Pte 2nd Class, RAF 06.11.1918. DCNK.

WATERS, William, 262908, Pte 2nd Class, RAF 16.09.1918. DCNK.

 

Do you have any other names that are connected to the crashes you mention?

 

Mike

[Errol Martyn]

1 SoMA was not a flying unit. The only aircraft held on its strength were instructional airframes. If there were aircraft accidents at the nearby airfield (Coley Park) they would have been to aircraft of other units either based there or visiting, or to an instructional airframe being used for ground running there.

 

Errol

[Gustywinds]

This is a topic that is very interesting to me. I have been researching my great uncle, FSL T.M. Greeves who died at Petit Synthe while training with 12 RNAS.  I've found  quite a lot of info on him but the day he died it looks like he went up in poor weather despite only having 3 hours previous flying in Camels and spun into the ground near the aerodrome. I have his records and the log from the squadron. Is there likely to be anything else I've missed?

[MikeMeech]

22 hours ago, Gustywinds said:

This is a topic that is very interesting to me. I have been researching my great uncle, FSL T.M. Greeves who died at Petit Synthe while training with 12 RNAS.  I've found  quite a lot of info on him but the day he died it looks like he went up in poor weather despite only having 3 hours previous flying in Camels and spun into the ground near the aerodrome. I have his records and the log from the squadron. Is there likely to be anything else I've missed?

Hi

 

'Airmen Died' does not have much more info, Camel was B5653, and he was buried in Dunkirk.   There were four others 'Killed Whilst Flying' on 12 (N) Squadron.  'Royal Navy Aircraft and Serials 1911-1919' page 329 strangely does not have him as died. The aircraft is down as wrecked 700 yds north of Petite Synthe, with the aircraft surveyed 24.12.17. and deleted 3.1.18.

 

Mike

[mickdavis]

Re Reading (Coley Park). The site was used as a Day Landing Ground by machines visiting the School of Aeronautics but an instruction was posted from 1 (T) Wing AFC on 4 June 1918 that the DLG was only to be used in an emergency (it's available on the AWM website). The casualties are all after that date and there are no references in the RAFM Casualty Cards of any flying accident there.

[Andy Bird]

Errol, Gustywinds, Mike and Mick,

No further names, still awaiting a date from TVP to view their police archives for period.

I agree that Casualty Cards don't show any accidents which is strange considering that Coley was operational from April/May 1916 onwards although individuals do occasionally mention crashes in letters or getting their 'ticket' at Coley. 

Andy Bird

[Guest]

On 6/13/2016 at 10:45, MikeMeech said:

'Airman Died in the Great War 1914-1918' (DVD-ROM) has a searchable data base of all British and Commonwealth air service deaths, a total of 9,350,all ranks all causes men and women, so making 14,000 plus dead pilots a bit of a problem! We can also search for 'training deaths', which I have done a rough search for.

Mike

 

Mike  - does Capt F G A Arkwright appear in the data? The reason I ask is that he was an 11th Hussar Officers who died in a training accident. Looking at my old an battered hard copy of ODGW, most Officers who transferred to the RFC are listed twice; once under their original regiment with "and RFC" or "and RAF" and again listed under the RFC pages. In this case I can't find Arkwright under the RFC pages, which makes me wonder if he is missing from "Airmen Died in the Great War". He was killed 14/10/1915.

 

Thanks  MG

[MikeMeech]

18 minutes ago, QGE said:

 

Mike  - does Capt F G A Arkwright appear in the data? The reason I ask is that he was an 11th Hussar Officers who died in a training accident. Looking at my old an battered hard copy of ODGW, most Officers who transferred to the RFC are listed twice; once under their original regiment with "and RFC" or "and RAF" and again listed under the RFC pages. In this case I can't find Arkwright under the RFC pages, which makes me wonder if he is missing from "Airmen Died in the Great War". He was killed 14/10/1915.

 

Thanks  MG

Hi MG

 

Yes he does appear.  Capt. Frederick George Alleyne ARKWRIGHT, killed whilst flying 14.10.1915. on No. 6 Reserve Squadron.  Aged 29, buried at Cromford, Derbys.  Ex. 11 Hussars.  Also killed was 2nd Lt. A H HARDY, aged 25, graded as pilot, so probably instructor as ARKWRIGHT did not have any grade included.  Ex Royal East Kent Yeomanry, buried at Chilham, Kent.

No. 6 Reserve Squadron was at Montrose at this time according to sources.  The details of the aeroplane they were killed in is not mentioned, the squadron had a variety of types.

 

Mike

[Guest]

 

47 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi MG

 

Yes he does appear.  Capt. Frederick George Alleyne ARKWRIGHT, killed whilst flying 14.10.1915. on No. 6 Reserve Squadron.  Aged 29, buried at Cromford, Derbys.  Ex. 11 Hussars.  Also killed was 2nd Lt. A H HARDY, aged 25, graded as pilot, so probably instructor as ARKWRIGHT did not have any grade included.  Ex Royal East Kent Yeomanry, buried at Chilham, Kent.

No. 6 Reserve Squadron was at Montrose at this time according to sources.  The details of the aeroplane they were killed in is not mentioned, the squadron had a variety of types.

 

Mike

 Many thanks for the clarification. MG

[SamCurt]

Returning to this thread's original topic, although not RFC/RNAS/RAF, the following paragraph was found in the U.S. Air Service in World War I, Volume 1, p.110, which was compiled from information gathered towards the end of the war:

 

"Hours Per Fatality

In the schools of the American Expeditionary Forces the hours flown per fatality vary from 2,738 for preliminary training, to 1,023 for advanced and pursuit training.  The general average is 1.173 hours per fatality.  It seems a safe conclusion that approximately 1 fatality per 1,000 hours is to be expected in advanced training under war conditions.  The proportion of fatalities to graduation in the American Expeditionary Forces shows 1 fatality to 90 graduates in preliminary work, 1 fatality to 9.2 graduations in pursuit training, and an average of about 1 fatality to 50 graduations in observation and bombardment.  The total average appears to be 1 fatality for every 18 completely trained flying service officers available for service."