Prussian Guards and Bavarians - their uniform

[davidbohl]

This newspaper report describes the demise of Capt C.N.Brockbank KLR during the attack on the trenches on the first day of the Somme. 

I'd would be interested to know if the Private Pringle in the clip would easily distinguish a Prussian Guard from a Bavarian?

If you can't read it I have transcribed it here https://www.liverpoolpals.com/soldier/?i=290/Capt-charles-norman-brockbank

thanks

Dave

From the BNA

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, davidbohl said:

This newspaper report describes the demise of Capt C.N.Brockbank KLR during the attack on the trenches on the first day of the Somme. 

I'd would be interested to know if the Private Pringle in the clip would easily distinguish a Prussian Guard from a Bavarian?

If you can't read it I have transcribed it here https://www.liverpoolpals.com/soldier/?i=290/Capt-charles-norman-brockbank

thanks

Dave

From the BNA

I doubt that he would have known the difference David, the basic dress was very similar with just some subtle differences around the collar and cuff design that might only be apparent to those who had studied it (usually officers). These different uniform characteristics would have been known by some intelligence staff, but whether the ordinary soldiers would have been briefed about them seems unlikely to me.  A better proposition might be in any assessment made after the assault when it could perhaps have been revealed what regiments had been opposing the assault, via the subsequent debriefing of any prisoners that *might* have been taken.

The information could then have reached the soldiers either accurately, or inaccurately, but impressionable young soldiers might well have believed it, whether true, or not.  That assertion could then have reached the newspapers via letters home by those same young soldiers wishing to impress their family members with exotic details regarding the enemy soldiers that they had faced.  To their impressionable minds no doubt ‘Prussian’ and ‘Bavarian’ sounded far more impressive and immediate than simply saying Germans, especially as much had apparently already been said in some parts of the print media about the martial prowess of ‘militaristic’ Prussians and ‘stalwart’ Bavarians.  See:

1. https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/48253-wwi-german-uniforms/

2.https://en.topwar.ru/89822-germanskiy-soldat-pervoy-mirovoy.html

 

Edited 3 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[davidbohl]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I doubt that he would have known the difference

Thanks Frogsmile, as you can tell from my query I suspected that might be the case.

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, davidbohl said:

Thanks Frogsmile, as you can tell from my query I suspected that might be the case.

Never let the truth stand in the way of a good story…especially when a young soldier is yarning, or a junior reporter for print media is trying to impress his editor.

Edited 3 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Hi,

the most obvious distinction for the uninitiated would not have been found in the uniform jacket but by looking at the Pickelhauben, if they were wearing them.

The crest on the helmet and the stuff around it (crest holder) is different and the cockade differs, too. Prussian black and white, Bavarian blue and white.

GreyC

Edited 3 December , 2023 by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Hi,

the most obvious distinction for the uninitiated would not have been found in the uniform jacket but by looking at the Pickelhauben, if they were wearing them.

The crest on the helmet and the stuff around it (crest holder) is different and the cockade differs, too. Prussian black and white, Bavarian blue and white.

GreyC

Would the helmets not have had covers around the time described in the newspaper reports GreyC?

Edited 3 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Hi,

possible, but not necessarily. The covers were introduced in 1884 and fully in 1892. However,  if worn, they´d sport the number of their unit on it, giving the origin of the unit away. That´s why numbers on the helmets were abolished not much later in October of that year.

GreyC

Edited 3 December , 2023 by GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Hi,

possible, but not necessarily. The covers were introduced in 1884 and fully in 1892. However,  if worn, they´d sport the number of their unit on it, giving the origin of the unit away. That´s why numbers on the helmets were abolished not much later in October of that year.

GreyC

Yes I understand.  My point was that when the soldier, “Private Pringle”, entered the trench and described seeing Prussians and Bavarians in 1916, he’s unlikely to have recognised helmets with numbered covers (if pickelhaubes), or the steel type either, and that, at best, he might note only small differences on the jacket.  Neither is very likely given his junior rank and probably limited knowledge.

Edited 3 December , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

Württemberger Grenadierregiment

?

IR 182, 133 Saxon (note "German cuffs")

IR 144 Reichslande Lothringen

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, GreyC said:

Württemberger Grenadierregiment

?

IR 182, 133 Saxon (note "German cuffs")

IR 144 Reichslande Lothringen

GreyC

I think the Landser in the steel helmet might be a Bavarian.

[GreyC]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think the Landser in the steel helmet might be a Bavarian.

The buttons, if discernible, would give it away. Crown (Prussian) or Lion (Bavarian).

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, GreyC said:

The buttons, if discernible, would give it away. Crown (Prussian) or Lion (Bavarian).

GreyC

Yes it’s a pity that they are not clear.

Overall I hope that the series of photos demonstrate how unlikely it is that Private Pringle would have identified separate groups of Prussian and Bavarian soldiers, even if they had been in the same trench.