Albert Edward Richmond, Royal Defence Corps (10213) and RAF (409621), but in what other unit(s) did he serve?

[rolt968]

Albert Edward Richmond joined/ transferred to the RAF on 2 July 1918. He had first enlisted (for WW1) on 2 April 1915 in a unit which I have been unable to find out. (RAF record - FindmyPast)

He was the father of Archibald Richmond (see this thread: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/229804-my-researchee-is-driving-me-up-the-wall/page/2/#comment-2285921)

Albert Richmond was briefly granted a pension. I have attached a Pension Card and Ledger entry:

Can anyone make any sense of the card, particularly the units for which his serial numbers were 8730 and 29663?

Incidentally there is misinformation on the card. He was born in 1862 and he was married.

I have looked for Medal Cards and not found any, but wasn't really expecting to find any given his age.

RM

 

Edited 27 November , 2023 by rolt968

[RussT]

It's often the case that men were transferred in a group from one unit to another and re-numbered together in the new unit.

On that basis, it sometimes pays to look at Service Records for men with similar numbers in the unit to which a man was transferred i.e. the RDC in this case prior to his transfer to the RAF (to which men were not normally transferred in a group but more likely as an individual).

The very first record I looked at was for 10212 James Miller RDC who was formerly in the Supernumerary Company of the 5th Battalion TF Scottish Rifles with number 8818 (enlisted 19/04/1915, transferred to RDC on 29/04/1916).

So my informed suggestion is that the number 8730 for Richmond originates from that same unit as for Miller above - and this would also fully account for the Glasgow address on his Pension records.

Further work will be required in an attempt to pin down to what the number 20663 belongs.

Regards

Russ

[RussT]

Some other Records

10214 Telfer RDC was ex 8843/20726  5/SR

10215 Birrell RDC was ex 9454/21029 5/SR

So men in this SR TF number range were being re-numbered with 2xxxx numbers in the 5th Bn SR for reasons I've not been able to understand - but this would nevertheless readily explain Richmond's 20663 number.

Russ

[rolt968]

25 minutes ago, RussT said:

It's often the case that men were transferred in a group from one unit to another and re-numbered together in the new unit.

On that basis, it sometimes pays to look at Service Records for men with similar numbers in the unit to which a man was transferred i.e. the RDC in this case prior to his transfer to the RAF (to which men were not normally transferred in a group but more likely as an individual).

The very first record I looked at was for 10212 James Miller RDC who was formerly in the Supernumerary Company of the 5th Battalion TF Scottish Rifles with number 8818 (enlisted 19/04/1915, transferred to RDC on 29/04/1916).

So my informed suggestion is that the number 8730 for Richmond originates from that same unit as for Miller above - and this would also fully account for the Glasgow address on his Pension records.

Further work will be required in an attempt to pin down to what the number 20663 belongs.

Regards

Russ

Many thanks Russ,

I should have thought of that! I was too busy looking at the other numbers to think of using the RDC number. The Supernumerary Company of the 5th Battalion TF Scottish Rifles could be useful, but unfortunately the Glasgow address may not have been his 1915 address. Before the Glasgow address I have found he used his sister's address, first in Alloa then the Edinburgh address on the ledger page.

RM

Edit: Our posts crossed, Russ. See my next post.

Edited 27 November , 2023 by rolt968

[rolt968]

7 minutes ago, RussT said:

Some other Records

10214 Telfer RDC was ex 8843/20726  5/SR

10215 Birrell RDC was ex 9454/21029 5/SR

So men in this SR TF number range were being re-numbered with 2xxxx numbers in the 5th Bn SR for reasons I've not been able to understand - but this would nevertheless readily explain Richmond's 20663 number.

Russ

Thanks again Russ,

That is beginning to look like a pattern. He could have been in the Glasgow area in 1915. Or indeed just joined the Scottish Rifles for reasons of his own.

RM

[RussT]

There are many records with other similar RDC numbers all telling the same story of being ex SR with a 4 and 5 digit SR number in the same range as the two "unknown" numbers for Richmond.

The man with the closest RDC number (10395) who died has his SDGW record as being ex 20977 SR - so the transferred group could be quite large.

 

[rolt968]

32 minutes ago, RussT said:

There are many records with other similar RDC numbers all telling the same story of being ex SR with a 4 and 5 digit SR number in the same range as the two "unknown" numbers for Richmond.

The man with the closest RDC number (10395) who died has his SDGW record as being ex 20977 SR - so the transferred group could be quite large.

 

Thank you for all the hard work Russ!

That's excellent.

RM

[rolt968]

One interesting thought: Post war he worked for Glasgow Education Authority. The offices were in Bath Street close to the HQ of 5 Scottish Rifles.

RM

[RussT]

The 2xxxx numbers being allotted to men joining Supernumerary Companies rang a bell - and I then re-called the thread below which posts the AO, which explains all and of particular note contains this paragraph wrt to re-numbering.

 

 

 

 

[rolt968]

Thank you again, Russ.

That's brilliant. I had thought this was a forlorn hope.

RM

Edited 10 December , 2023 by rolt968

[Matlock1418]

On 27/11/2023 at 18:56, rolt968 said:

Albert Richmond was briefly granted a pension. I have attached a Pension Card and Ledger entry:

Can't answer your main enquiry, but that seems sorted really.

However for your [though you may know this and more about this chap] and for others' information ... just looking at these records ...

The first record is a pension index card - If he was discharged early 1919 the 1918 RW would have applied. 8/3 pw from 3.4.19 to 7.10 19 for a Corporal might suggest that he was an NCO entitled to a Service Pension [listed between pension Classes IV and V at @ 30% disability but quantum same as a Class V rate - since 9/- pw was a full Pension Class IV/Cpl's rate for 30%] or that he was being treated as an Class V pensioner/Pte/Airman [@ 8/3 pw for 30%]

The second record is a pension ledger page [not a card - the image sizes are deceptive and they were physically quite a bit larger than a card - don't forget these front pages quite often have a reverse side, accessed by using the right arrow at the bottom of screen when viewing the original file at WFA/Fold3] - the reverse shows 23.9.19, 30%, 12/- pw from 8.10.19 to 9.12.19 [now under the 1919 RW the 30% rate - again seeems potentially a Service Pensioner NCO's rate or Class V] and yet 30.9.19, Nil - however with a G. Supp: [Gratuity Supplementary], £5.

Under the 1918 RW there was no pension allowance for a wife [Though under the 1919 RW, which came into force in Sept 1919, this was possible]

= It would be interesting to learn if he was a Service Pensioner.

M

Edited 10 December , 2023 by Matlock1418

[rolt968]

8 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Can't answer your main enquiry, but that seems sorted really.

However for your [though you may know this and more about this chap] and for others' information ... just looking at these records ...

The first record is a pension index card - If he was discharged early 1919 the 1918 RW would have applied. 8/3 pw from 3.4.19 to 7.10 19 for a Corporal might suggest that he was an NCO entitled to a Service Pension [listed between pension Classes IV and V at @ 30% disability but quantum same as a Class V rate - since 9/- pw was a full Pension Class IV/Cpl's rate for 30%] or that he was being treated as an Class V pensioner/Pte/Airman [@ 8/3 pw for 30%]

The second record is a pension ledger page [not a card - the image sizes are deceptive and they were physically quite a bit larger than a card - don't forget these front pages quite often have a reverse side, accessed by using the right arrow at the bottom of screen when viewing the original file at WFA/Fold3] - the reverse shows 23.9.19, 30%, 12/- pw from 8.10.19 to 9.12.19 [now under the 1919 RW the 30% rate - again seeems potentially a Service Pensioner NCO's rate or Class V] and yet 30.9.19, Nil - however with a G. Supp: [Gratuity Supplementary], £5.

Under the 1918 RW there was no pension allowance for a wife [Though under the 1919 RW, which came into force in Sept 1919, this was possible]

= It would be interesting to learn if he was a Service Pensioner.

M

I don't think he had a service pension (Implying previous service?).

He is something of an enigma. I have not found him on any census between 1871 and 1921 - possibly/probably because he was in South Africa.

He was married but does not appear to have told the RAF. He said he was married in the1921 Census but his wife was not with him at the time. He was a widower when he died in 1927. His wife is even more of an enigma.

This the part of the RAF record which refers to previous service:

He did indeed serve in Bethune's Mounted Infantry but deserted and enlisted in the Imperial Hospital Corps. (Boer War Muster Rolls (FmP) and Boer War Medal Rolls (ancestry).

RM

Edited 10 December , 2023 by rolt968

[Matlock1418]

On 10/12/2023 at 19:48, rolt968 said:

I don't think he had a service pension (Implying previous service?).

Yes, a Service Pension would suggest previous long service qualifying for such a pension.

For NCO & WO any War/Disability Pension awarded would be consequentially reduced to that of a Private by a SP.  To do so does seem rather 'off' to me.

For RICHMOND the pension records do seem to revert to just a standard Pte/AM rate - and no wife showing.

M