Alf Nunn's "wings"

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

I agree. Although strictly still Labour Corps (?) I suspect he wanted his East Surrey affiliation shown..

Thoughts @FROGSMILE incl what the armband might be about?

It’s an interesting record of service isn’t it.  In theory Matlock is correct that if he had been transferred to the Labour Corps rather than posted to it temporarily he should have been wearing the new Labour Corps cap badge first issued in 1918.  Sometimes if men were downgraded temporarily with expectations that they might recover then they’d continue to wear their original parent badge.  Mobile medical boards then might upgrade them periodically so that they could return to full duty.  The armlet isn’t sufficiently distinctive for any positive identification but they were usually to designate a special function.  Given that he wears corporals stripes it seems to be whilst he was with the CLC.  As it seems unlikely that he spoke Chinese I suspect he was fulfilling an administrative role such as storekeeper or clerk.

Edited 20 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The armlet isn’t sufficiently distinctive for any positive identification

Thanks for responding anyway.

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Thanks for responding anyway.

Charlie

There was definitely a bit of a stigma among some soldiers about the Labour Corps, perhaps especially among those joinees who had never served overseas.  One can imagine such a young man, no doubt proud of his two stripes, not wanting to advertise his Labour Corps parent when his earlier East Surrey allegiance would, in his own mind, be so much more impressive at a time when he was probably surrounded by veterans in his duties at the base with the CLC.  At that time the CLC were very busy with salvage and drawing down the BEF.

Edited 20 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

Hi FS, Great that you have become involved.

May I please ask a question about the cap badge East Surrey Regt or 23rd Bn (County of London) London Regt??

• Though the record suggests East Surrey Regt the photographed cap badge appears to have a prominent crown and was centrally pierced the images I have seen have ESR with a less prominent crown and solid centre - did the ESR have other variants?

M

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Hi FS, Great that you have become involved.

May I please ask a question about the cap badge East Surrey Regt or 23rd Bn (County of London) London Regt??

• Though the record suggests East Surrey Regt the photographed cap badge appears to have a prominent crown and was centrally pierced the images I have seen have ESR with a less prominent crown and solid centre - did the ESR have other variants?

M

No, the ES regiment badge had no voids, not even that for the Wandsworth (Service) Battalion.

I’m also deeply puzzled by the RFC wings lapel badge, it would’ve been very unusual back then to wear a lapel pin you were not entitled to, especially after a world war.  To veterans a lapel pin generally indicated primary allegiance.

Edited 20 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

No, the ES regiment badge had no voids, not even that for the Wandsworth (Service) Battalion.

Thanks - Hmm?

So do you have any other particular thoughts about the cap badge in the photo?

M

Edited 20 November , 2023 by Matlock1418

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks - Hmm?

So do you have any other particular thoughts about the cap badge in the photo?

M

I’ve re-examined all the other regiment’s with a similar outline shape of badge (East Yorks, Cheshire and Worcestershire) and can find none with voids like that of the 23rd London Regiment.

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m also deeply puzzled by the RFC wings lapel badge, it would’ve been very unusual back then to wear a lapel pin you were not entitled to, especially after a world war.  To veterans a lapel pin generally indicated primary allegiance.

I'm struggling to attribute identity or age or to date the respective photos - The lad with lapel badge looks quite young so either perhaps before/early in the war [before Jan 1917] or possibly a young [and different] relative after it ??

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve re-examined all the other regiment’s with a similar outline shape of badge (East Yorks, Cheshire and Worcestershire) and can find none with voids like that of the 23rd London Regiment

So your opinion please of the photo - am I seeing voids etc in that cap badge when there are none?

M

Edited 20 November , 2023 by Matlock1418

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

I'm struggling to attribute identity or age or to date the respective photos - The lad with lapel badge looks quite young so either perhaps before/early in the war [before Jan 1917] or possibly a young [and different] relative after it ??

So your opinion please of the photo - am I seeing voids etc in that cap badge when there are none?

M

1.  It might well be a relative during or immediately post war, I agree.  The horseshoe so high up the tie might also be significant as it represents both, good luck, and qualification army wise, as a farrier and/or cold shoer.

2.  I agree that the location of the voids is very strong evidence that the badge is that of the 23rd London Regiment, no other fits the visual evidence.

NB.  Clearly those two factors don’t square with Stebie’s excellent service rundown.

Edited 20 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Matlock1418]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

1.  It might well be a relative during or immediately post war, I agree.  The horseshoe so high up the tie might also be significant as it represents both, good luck, and qualification army wise, as a farrier and/or cold shoer.

2.  I agree that the location of the voids is very strong evidence that the badge is that of the 23rd London Regiment, no other fits the visual evidence.

Thanks for your thoughts - so valued.

M

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Thanks for your thoughts - so valued.

M

I’ve spent the intervening minutes really scrutinising the two photos.  As a result I’d happily place a very high wager now that the two photos show the same individual.  I strongly believe that the photo in civilian clothes is from early in the war, before enlistment, and suspect that the wings lapel pin has some other family connection (perhaps a relative serving).  Comments regarding the cap badge still stand.

Edited 20 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TomWW1]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve spent the intervening minutes really scrutinising the two photos.  As a result I’d happily place a very high wager now that the two photos show the same individual.  I strongly believe that the photo in civilian clothes is from early in the war, before enlistment, and suspect that the wings lapel pin have some other family connection (perhaps a relative serving).  Comments regarding the cap badge still stand.

After careful examination of both photos I can determine that it is the same person in each photo like you have stated 

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’ve spent the intervening minutes really scrutinising the two photos.  As a result I’d happily place a very high wager now that the two photos show the same individual.  I strongly believe that the photo in civilian clothes is from early in the war, before enlistment and suspect that the wings lapel pin have some other family connection (perhaps a relative serving).

I think that is quite a likely possibility - and wouldn't spoil Stephen's previous ID and him needing to get his coat.

The explantion of the lapel badge is plausible.

The big remaining query now is the cap badge - that hasn't [yet?] been explained.

M

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said:

I think that is quite a likely possibility - and wouldn't spoil Stephen's previous ID and him needing to get his coat.

The explantion of the lapel badge is plausible.

The big remaining query now is the cap badge - that hasn't [yet?] been explained.

M

Agreed.  It seems very odd.

[Stebie9173]

The lapel badge is very small (about an inch and a half to two inches) and the lad looks particularly young. I thought the RFC badge of the time was much bigger. I think he is just wearing badges, probably those that have a family meaning. We are not suggesting he is a farrier because he has a horseshoe "farrier" badge on his tie. There may even be a third badge there as well though that may be a photo glitch or bit of fluff!

Steve.

EDIT: Had this reply sitting for a while and I see that the same points are raised above!

 

Edited 20 November , 2023 by Stebie9173

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, Stebie9173 said:

The lapel badge is very small (about an inch and a half to two inches) and the lad looks particularly young. I thought the RFC badge of the time was much bigger. I think he is just wearing badges, probably those that have a family meaning. We are not suggesting he is a farrier because he has a horseshoe "farrier" badge on his tie. There may even be a third badge there as well though that may be a photo glitch or bit of fluff!

 

Steve.

Yes it’s not a set of military wings I agree.  I believe it’s a typical lapel pin badge of the type that I posted above.  I’ve noted over the years three types at the everyman affordable end of the scale, plain brass or plain nickel, and those with enamelled centres.  The RFC had existed since 1911 so it seems likely to me that there was some family association, I doubt that it was just worn as a whim.  In hindsight of these discussions, perhaps the horse shoe was just a good luck charm, they were very popular for that along with such things as gollys made from pipe cleaners and various other effigies such as the famous - ‘fumsup’ whose arms could be raised and who had a wooden head to be ‘touched’.

 

 

 

Edited 20 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

question about the cap badge East Surrey Regt or 23rd Bn (County of London) London Regt?

When was the Bn disbanded? If you are all sure it's 23rd Bn Londons, is it possible Nunn attested to the TF shortly after demob TRF to ClassZ ? Would he have retained his Corporal's stripes - or did he like everyone else have to drop rank in a much reduced Army? Because Nunn didn't serve overseas until 1919 we have none of the date aids such as ribbons.

Charlie

Edited 20 November , 2023 by charlie962

[stephen p nunn]

Brilliant chaps. Thank you so much. Stephen (Maldon).

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

5 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

question about the cap badge East Surrey Regt or 23rd Bn (County of London) London Regt?

When was the Bn disbanded? If you are all sure it's 23rd Bn Londons, is it possible Nunn attested to the TF shortly after demob TRF to ClassZ ? Would he have retained his Corporal's stripes - or did he like everyone else have to drop rank in a much reduced Army?

I don't know for sure about 23 [CoL] LR disband date - weren't similar such battalions gone by April 1920 ???

Interesting speculation about re-signing - but surely re-signing would have found a way onto his SR one way or another. ???

Though now had another interesting speculative thought = in April 1921 there were also emergency 90 day service re-signs of former soldiers into the Defence Force due to mining and rail industrial trouble - with locally affiliated units [but possibly at a lower rank??]  I think such DF re-signs were much less well documented.

My next suggestion is a look at the 1921 Census for him to be possibly signed up with the DF [I found a relative doing DF service at the date of the Census - remarkably beyond his MIC/MR the only official record of him doing service and such DF service due to his previously lost service record]

= ??? as we don't have a definitive date for the photo - Possibly a case of getting in a quick privately-commissioned photo with a new cap badge but his stripes still up from before ??? Or ???

Puzzling, but interesting never the less - hope we can find an answer for Stephen.

M

Edit: A basic search suggests, though I can't see the full entry(ies), that he probably wasn't with the DF in the 1921 Census - Stephen can you see the Census on FMP?

Further edit: This site records [accurate?] https://london.fandom.com/wiki/23rd_London_Regiment

Inter-war period

The Territorial Force was reformed and renamed as the Territorial Army (TA) in 1920. The 23rd (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment was reformed at Clapham. In 1922 all battalions of the London Regiment were reconstituted as separate regiments and the unit became 23rd London Regiment, slightly retitled to 23rd London Regiment, The East Surrey Regiment in 1927.

Cor, far too confusing for me in a 'strange to me' part of the country.

Edited 20 November , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit and further edit

[stephen p nunn]

Just found another picture of Alf.....

And this is on the back....

[Matlock1418]

10 minutes ago, stephen p nunn said:

Just found another picture of Alf.....

Shoulder titles and even harder to distinguish buttons to excite @FROGSMILE I would think.

M

Edit: Revisited his SR summary on the first page - that 4 over curved title would rather seem to likely make it from 4th Bn, East Surrey Regt and photographer, from reverse, would seem to match his Felixstowe posting

Edited 20 November , 2023 by Matlock1418
edit

[Stebie9173]

I have an opinion on what that shoulder title says, but I will leave it to more informed eyes to give their own opinion! The location of the photographer does confirm the Felixstowe/Harwich/Sutton connection though.

 

Steve

 

[FROGSMILE]

30 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Shoulder titles and even harder to distinguish buttons to excite @FROGSMILE I would think.

M

Edit: Revisited his SR summary on the first page - that 4 over curved title would rather seem to likely make it from 4th Bn, East Surrey Regt and photographer, from reverse, would seem to match his Felixstowe posting

I believe it’s an E_SURREY title with something else above it, possibly a T.

Edited 20 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Stebie9173]

+1 vote for 4 over E. Surrey

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, Stebie9173 said:

+1 vote for 4 over E. Surrey

Yes I think you’re right Stebie, I can see the 4 now that you point it out.  Well spotted.