Piper42nd Posted 16 November , 2023 Share Posted 16 November , 2023 Would anyone happen to have photos or drawings of the tool box(es) that British armourers would have used at the outset of the war? I've been using a couple of American boxes provided for their M17 rifles to store the Enfield tools I've collected over the years. Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted 19 November , 2023 Share Posted 19 November , 2023 I don’t know the date of this photo, but the chest appears to be identical to the M17 American armourers’ box. Whether it is standard British issue or one obtained (legally or illegally) from our allies, I am not prepared to offer an opinion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper42nd Posted 19 November , 2023 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2023 If you scale the length of the box in your photo to the Lewis Gun it works out to about 44". I know the images are not square to the camera but close enough. The length of the M17 box is only 18". Thanks for responding though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted 20 November , 2023 Share Posted 20 November , 2023 Piper, Here are some further images. The first was apparently, an American toolbox, offered for sale on a well-known website. Given the surrounding terrain, I suppose the poor devils had to hump these around with them, but I wouldn’t say they were exactly portable. They may well have carried a selection of essential tools in a pack or knapsack, though I haven’t come across a photograph. Pictures of WW1 armourers seem to be very scarce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 20 November , 2023 Share Posted 20 November , 2023 (edited) They have stayed the same from the Great War to the present day. I had one from the 80's. Edited 20 November , 2023 by 303man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted 20 November , 2023 Share Posted 20 November , 2023 Thanks for that 303 Man. The photos that I found make it look larger than the US chest in the first photo. 18 by 15 by 7 doesn’t sound very big. Was yours bigger than that, do you remember? Interesting to know that the design didn’t change in sixty years, or more. You must have muscles like Popeye! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 20 November , 2023 Share Posted 20 November , 2023 (edited) They had 4 holes in each corner for legs these were stored inside the box thee were 4 metal tubular legs which are held in place by a pin. The box is at least 3ft by 2ft and about8in deep. Mine had 3 holes in the lid where an armourers vice would be bolted. Edited 20 November , 2023 by 303man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper42nd Posted 20 November , 2023 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2023 Sniper that box you show is indeed the American M17 box. You're right that pictures of armourers are very difficult to find. I have 3 or 4 more photos than those you show that I think are all Canadian. 303man that's exactly the box I want to duplicate. From scaling it against people and the Lewis Gun in various photos I arrived at 42" long, 18" wide and 6" deep which is pretty close to what you remember. Regarding the legs, were there just holes in the bottom of the box and the box rested on the pin or something more elaborate if you recall? Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 20 November , 2023 Share Posted 20 November , 2023 They do turn up now and again I sold mine which was 1986 dated on E Bay a few years ago. The pin went into a hole in the corner block and the bottom of the corner block had a piece of steel screwed to it to give the leg extra rigidity. very few images on the web. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted 20 November , 2023 Share Posted 20 November , 2023 Thanks for the extra info. 303. Piper, glad you’re getting some useful information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted 20 November , 2023 Share Posted 20 November , 2023 Couple of further images added for information. Not WW1, of course. Piper, would you be willing to post your photos of the Canadian armourers? I would really appreciate it if you could. The photo with the Jeep clearly shows the legs 303 Man refers to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
303man Posted 20 November , 2023 Share Posted 20 November , 2023 The legs are straight, and the holes in the base are at an angle. This is because cranked legs would take up more space in the box when stored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper42nd Posted 20 November , 2023 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2023 That makes sense. It must have been fun drilling holes at an angle. Do you recall how deep the holes were by chance? It's hard to tell from the photos but it seems they couldn't have been more than an inch or so. It looks like a 3/4" floor board and a 3/4" block of wood on each corner. Thanks for all your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper42nd Posted 15 February Author Share Posted 15 February I finished my replica tool box. I'm not sure if the dimensions are correct. I scaled them off several photos so I think they're close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted 15 February Share Posted 15 February 👏👏 Well done, you. It looks fantastic. Would you do one for me? It would have to be 1/76 scale, or 4mm to the foot. i won’t hold my breath! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 15 February Share Posted 15 February Mr Sniper, do you happen to have a source or date for the great photos you posted of the Armourers at work.? Or a link to where they can be found on the web. They are fascinating images with the sheer amount of detail shown. I am particularly curious as to why there is a Gewehr 98 propped against the workbench waiting for some repairs.! Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted 15 February Share Posted 15 February Sorry SS. I’m afraid that I don’t have any references for the photos. I should be meticulous about these things, but I spend hours trawling the web for images of subjects which interact me. As they are primarily for my own research, I don’t make notes of the sources. i think if you start out by searching ‘Armourers’ Chest’ and just see where it takes you. I have been looking all week for a clear image of the electric transporters at Port Richborough and today came across exactly what I wanted in a book which I have owned for years. Serendipity. Sorry I can’t be of more use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 15 February Share Posted 15 February No worries, I appreciate the quick reply. Since posting I began searching a little but then remembered some mention of this new Tech which searches for photos on the web. So thought I would give it a try ... it is actually AMAZING.! It is called Google LENS and you simply put in a copy of the image and it searches for the best match found on the net. Took seconds to bring them up and a simple look through brings up the particular photos. Bloody fantastic.! So here is the link I found to a couple of the images. Appears they are CEF Armourers working behind the lines near Vimy Ridge in May 1917. https://canadaatwarblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/cefs-ross-rifle-fiasco-responsible-for-countless-of-casualties-fact-or-myth/ Cheers, SS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted 15 February Share Posted 15 February Many thanks, SS. i shall certainly give it a try. Cheers, Sniper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 February Share Posted 15 February (edited) The box below is the long standing British pattern (since before and throughout both world wars and beyond**) that contained the Armourers Supplementary Tool Kit. As mentioned earlier it used to have steel legs that when inserted into the base of the box, were retained by pins throught the corners to stop the legs falling out when lifted or moved. All the compartments, with exception of the sectioned tray had lids with leather lifting tags and the long section at the rear of the box was for cleaning rods. The vice mounting plate was fitted at the front of the box and retained by two bolts through the front into the base and two screws through the rear top of the plate and screwed into the dividing section. It was still in use until the calibre change from 7.62mm to 5.56mm in the 1980s, at which point it was replaced and the existing stocks sold off as surplus. **I don’t think it was a copy of any American model. The British Army had long been an expeditionary Army at that time and I have the description and packing list for its predecessor dating back to the 1850s-60s cross over period during the transition to rifle muskets like the Minie and Enfield. If anything I’d suggest that the American pattern might well have been modelled from the British one during the ACW, when large stands of Arms with associated ancillaries were exported from Britain to both belligerents to supplement indigenous manufacturers and suppliers. Edited 20 March by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper42nd Posted 15 February Author Share Posted 15 February That's mostly what I copied. The interior sections aren't quite the same I know. The rear section does have two cleaning rods in it and the legs will fit for transportation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 15 February Share Posted 15 February (edited) 41 minutes ago, Piper42nd said: That's mostly what I copied. The interior sections aren't quite the same I know. The rear section does have two cleaning rods in it and the legs will fit for transportation. That’s great. I hope that seeing the British (and associated WW1/WW2 Commonwealth forces) pattern box has been useful. Edited 15 February by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper42nd Posted 20 March Author Share Posted 20 March Based on @FROGSMILE's photos and comments I have added lids with leather lifting tags to the compartments and a hinged lid to the sectioned tray. The photos show my box and the ones Frogsmile added for comparison. Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 March Share Posted 20 March What a great job you’ve done. It looks very good and period authentic. 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piper42nd Posted 21 March Author Share Posted 21 March Thank you for the kind words Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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