Service Dress drab material: two official versions?: help needed.

[Muerrisch]

This topic was inspired by a previous, dated 12 November 'Something for Muerrisch'. I do not want to hijack that contribution, but to follow a single aspect regarding possible special material SD jackets for warrant officers.

I can not remember handling or seeing a SD WO jacket of the period 1902 to 1914. Photographic evidence suggests that, in addition to the other various commissioned officer-like features, some jackets show SD material of apparent finer quality.  As I am heavily into research on battalion staff I searched, and searched in vain, for any official reference to regulations stipulating or permitting special treatment for warrant officers and 1st class staff (except in full dress scarlet tunic order).

So far I have consulted: Regulations for Service Dress AO 10/1902; the Royal Army Clothing Department Ledger; the Priced Vocabulary 1907, and Clothing Regulations 1909. None mention a second, better cloth. Also in 1907 there was only one SD drab material available by the piece for regimental use. Indeed CR 240/1914 states that 'clothing will be supplied made-up except the full-dress garments for warrant officers, staff sergeants and band, which will be issued in units which have master tailors' .

So did these WOs put their own hands in their pockets, were the finer jackets regimentally funded, or can someone quote an authority out there that I have yet to find?

Thanks in advance.

 

[FROGSMILE]

As you have pointedly referred to my analysis of the other thread showing a group photo of prewar warrant officers and SNCOs I feel that I should respond to your query.  The different qualities of service dress cloth that I referred to I had read about in an extensive study of service dress uniform that was sent to me in a series of files using file transfer compression from a source in the USA.  Unfortunately I did not have the software to reconstruct it in its original form.  I found it very interesting, as it goes into great detail regarding the different weights of cloth, a variety of shades and the development of the uniform over successive decades.  I’m afraid that I cannot provide you with chapter and verse on these and no longer have the document.

That notwithstanding, what has been clear to me for a long time purely from examining photos of the uniform concerned is that the cloth is of a finer quality than that issued for ranks below those entitled to quality of the first class.  As I know that other uniform cloth, such as that for scarlet full dress, blue equivalents, and various others, were provided in an officer-like quality for first class clothing to be made at public expense, then I believe that the same applied, at least for a period, before and in the early part of WW1**.  However, I think that once the scale of the war became apparent such niceties fell by the wayside, and that first class quality khaki cloth for SD was probably dispensed with for warrant officers as a free provision.  It would explain why the picture became much more mixed after that, as warrant officers were increasingly seen in ordinary SD with only a rank badge and a Sam Browne to mark them out, and just the occasional contrary example wearing a fine quality SD of officer cut, but very commonly with a closed rather than open rever collar.

As regards the means of tailoring I was referring to the section that you quoted in Clothing Regulations for first class in relation to full dress, in the sense that it seems likely to me that that clause was used early on to make up SD, probably under some form of administrative order dispensation.  See pre 1900 list of cloth below.  I suggest this without any specific written evidence, and purely because we can clearly see visual evidence that the uniforms existed, that they were made of a finer cloth, and that they have the idiosyncratic differences that one would expect to see with uniforms made up locally (internal to unit) prewar.  Warrant officers would not, universally, have had the wherewithal to self fund like the officers did.  Surviving uniforms rarely have any tailors label, or any sign of the fancy stitching or quilting seen in items from gentleman’s outfitters.  As with the provision of a superior cloth, I don’t think that this modus would have continued for long after 1914, as it seems likely that battalion Master Tailors were otherwise located and employed on priorities of greater moment.

On reflection, it seems important to keep in mind that with just one unit level sergeant major for each battalion, it would not have been justifiable to maintain the effort and expense of special uniform on such a small scale.  What is clear is that after the war this style of uniform was returned to the RSMs (as they had become) and Bandmasters, and that it is rather opaque as to how this was provided and funded across the army as a whole.

**types of cloth available for warrant officers had been laid down in 1900 Dress Regulations (not Clothing Regulations), but had disappeared by the 1911 iteration, probably because it wasn’t a logical place for them to be.  See original list below.  It seems likely that drab serge was added subsequently, as it had been a material used for 1899, 1901 and 1902 patterns of OR service dress and so was well established by 1914.

 

Edited 10 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Thank you for trying ............. absolutely nothing to disagree with.

The truth is out there, as they say.

Let us hope that someone somewhere has a copy of the study, so I can incorporate any new references in my labours.

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you for trying ............. absolutely nothing to disagree with.

The truth is out there, as they say.

Let us hope that someone somewhere has a copy of the study, so I can incorporate any new references in my labours.

It’s an excellent study (published in Canada from memory) and I was deeply disappointed that I could not upload it properly.

Notice that on these two surviving SD uniforms one has a mitred cuff and inset waistband, and the other does not.  One also has a more green shade of khaki whereas the other is the more traditional drab (brownish).  One has Norfolk Regiment provenance, and the other ASC.

The extract below from British-Indian Army ‘Dress Regulations 1931’ suggests a practice for British warrant officers on the ‘home’ establishment of some longevity.  

Edited 17 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

And the Bandmaster in first class service dress.

NB.  Note the gauntlet cuff on the Scottish version.  Again I have seen an example with a single edging of herringbone tape.

Edited 10 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Thank you very much for the 1931.

[FROGSMILE]

On 17/11/2023 at 12:11, Muerrisch said:

Thank you very much for the 1931.

I’m glad to help a little. 

Edited 28 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

On 16/11/2023 at 16:33, Muerrisch said:

Thank you for trying ............. absolutely nothing to disagree with.

The truth is out there, as they say.

Let us hope that someone somewhere has a copy of the study, so I can incorporate any new references in my labours.

As promised I continued to try to access details of the study to which I referred, which by any standard is a quite remarkable piece of work.  Only part of it relates to the service dress devised for issue from 1902, and because it spans a period that is inclusive of WW2 and beyond, it defines matters with the term Canadian Army, as opposed to CEF that was proper 1914-1918.  There is a list of references and unsurprisingly some of these relate to orders and regulations of Imperial origin that are equally applicable to the regular British Army and its associated auxiliary and war-raised units.  I hope that it will go some way towards supplementing your own research into the dress of Staff Sergeants, albeit just within the time span 1914-1919.  It seems to me to make clear that there was some special cloth for the uniforms of warrant officer class one under this scheme.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Thank you very much indeed: a lot to digest. The author seems to have done a thorough job.

[FROGSMILE]

29 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you very much indeed: a lot to digest. The author seems to have done a thorough job.

Yes he did, I’ll send you the the entire document in due course.  It goes into great detail in relation to the officers’ SD especially. 

[gordon92]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes he did, I’ll send you the the entire document in due course.  It goes into great detail in relation to the officers’ SD especially. 

This document is online at http://parkscanadahistory.com/publications/drab-serge-khaki-drill.pdf

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

This document is online at http://parkscanadahistory.com/publications/drab-serge-khaki-drill.pdf

Excellent!  Thank you.

[gordon92]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Excellent!  Thank you.

Actually, I have a faint recollection that I may have gotten this link from you!🤔

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

Actually, I have a faint recollection that I may have gotten this link from you!🤔

No you didn’t, I haven’t seen it in that format before.  I received it via file transfer from a contact in the US, but was unable to open it as a single coherent file, as I made clear earlier in this thread.  If I’d had it I’d have posted it then as is fairly obvious from the sequence of posts.

Edited 10 March by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

I think the Canadian document is exemplary in its presentation and scholarship: would that similar studies, properly referenced, could be / have been produced for GB. As it is, there is a wealth of information to be gleaned on War Office practice.

One glaring error which will throw nobody .......... dates of Overseas Chevrons.

The person who never made a mistake never made anything of course

[gordon92]

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

No you didn’t, I haven’t seen it in that format before.  I received it via file transfer from a contact in the US, but was unable to open it as a single coherent file, as I made clear earlier in this thread.  If I’d had it I’d have posted it then as is fairly obvious from the sequence of posts.

You may be interested in this thread, 18th post down: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/287451-canadian-seven-buttion-service-dress-jacket/

[Muerrisch]

Well, better thrice than never.

Edited 11 March by Muerrisch

[Muerrisch]

That moment when you pause on the stairs. 

Was I going up or down?

I need to know, because if I was going up and carry on up, I will remember why I was going up.

But if I go down I won't be where I was when I first thought the thought.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, gordon92 said:

You may be interested in this thread, 18th post down: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/287451-canadian-seven-buttion-service-dress-jacket/

I’m sorry Mike, I didn’t remember that at all and so am happy to eat humble pie.  I neither kept the link, nor read it all because I’d got the wrong impression from its title.  Ironically a friend in the US had mentioned to me subsequently that he had an excellent publication on 02 SD and it’s development and offered to send it to me via ‘File Transfer’ software, which he did, but as mentioned I was unable to open it and so did not make the link between the two in my mind at all.  Anyway, I’m glad you’ve sent it back to me, as it were, and this time I’ll save it as a pdf rather than the series of jpg images that I received it in recently from elsewhere.  I’m glad that I was able to post the pages relevant to this thread given that the matter had been left open ended.

P.S.  If you knew you had this was there any particular reason why you didn’t post it when this thread was first initiated, or had you simply not linked the two?  

Edited 11 March by FROGSMILE

[gordon92]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m sorry Mike, I didn’t remember that at all and so am happy to eat humble pie.  I neither kept the link, nor read it all because I’d got the wrong impression from its title.  Ironically a friend in the US had mentioned to me subsequently that he had an excellent publication on 02 SD and it’s development and offered to send it to me via ‘File Transfer’ software, which he did, but as mentioned I was unable to open it and so did not make the link between the two in my mind at all.  Anyway, I’m glad you’ve sent it back to me, as it were, and this time I’ll save it as a pdf rather than the series of jpg images that I received it in recently from elsewhere.  I’m glad that I was able to post the pages relevant to this thread given that the matter had been left open ended.

P.S.  If you knew you had this was there any particular reason why you didn’t post it when this thread was first initiated, or had you simply not linked the two?  

No problem at all, Frogsmile.  Yes, I only made the connection to the Canadian document when I saw the images you posted.

[Muerrisch]

And I can add an authoritative paragraph to my book on 'Staff sergeants' re WO jacket material.

Win win.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, gordon92 said:

No problem at all, Frogsmile.  Yes, I only made the connection to the Canadian document when I saw the images you posted.

Thank you, I understand.

8 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

And I can add an authoritative paragraph to my book on 'Staff sergeants' re WO jacket material.

Win win.

I’m glad that it’s useful and agree with your comments about the quality of the research.  I was very surprised to learn of the sheer number of weights and variations of cloth used and favoured by different regiments.

Edited 11 March by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

That moment when you pause on the stairs. 

Was I going up or down?

I need to know, because if I was going up and carry on up, I will remember why I was going up.

But if I go down I won't be where I was when I first thought the thought.

I think you might enjoy watching this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zObH9QWUew8&pp=ygUSb3BlcmF0aW9uIGluc2FuaXR5

 

[gordon92]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

And I can add an authoritative paragraph to my book on 'Staff sergeants' re WO jacket material.

Win win.

I just sent you a PM on a related subject.

[FROGSMILE]

On 11/03/2024 at 19:44, Muerrisch said:

And I can add an authoritative paragraph to my book on 'Staff sergeants' re WO jacket material.

Win win.

Like me, I think you will be quite intrigued to see this Cameronian’s [R]QMS, who seems to reflect some of the confusion regarding what service dress uniform infantry warrant officers and first class staff sergeants should wear.

Notice again the single line of herringbone tape appearing on the edge of the cuff as per another example noted earlier.  I think that the photo dates to very early in the war given the badge of rank and appointment, marking that the individual concerned was still of staff sergeant grade.  He seems to have the two SA ribbons and so if that’s correct to have been 2nd Battalion.  Presumably he became a warrant officer class II in 1915 and would’ve changed his badge to a plain crown hitherto worn by the sergeant major of battalion.

Edited 17 March by FROGSMILE