Acknowledging Identification on Memorials to the Missing

[keithmroberts]

I feel that marking the memorial would serve little purpose except tp mystify the casual visitor. As these memorials all have registers, which are replaced/renewed rather more frequently than the memorials, maybe there could usefully be a short explanation added to reprints of the memorials to explain that some of the missing have been found.

[kenf48]

As an aside the CWGC note that during the recent renovation of Thiepval only panels which were damaged. e.g. cracked, were replaced.  

The intention was to retain as much originality as possible.  

https://www.cwgc.org/our-work/blog/thiepval-at-90-sustainable-solutions-for-a-spectacular-restoration/

That means those panels where identified men were shown were not replaced.

[Matlock1418]

14 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

As an aside the CWGC note that during the recent renovation of Thiepval only panels which were damaged. e.g. cracked, were replaced.  

The intention was to retain as much originalities possible.  

That means those panels where identified men were shown were not replaced.

Understood that 'panel replacement just for the sake of replacement/removing names' would not occur -

But what happened to those names on the cracked panels that needed replacing? - were the names of the missing/now found retained or have they now gone?

CWGC have previously given the impression that such names would eventually be removed once they had a named headstone(s) - but only if/when the panel needed replacing due to wear/damage.

Certainly as the Menin Gate is currently getting its big restoration it would be interesting to see what happens there too.

M

Edited 29 October , 2023 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

49 minutes ago, keithmroberts said:

I feel that marking the memorial would serve little purpose except tp mystify the casual visitor.

Or perhaps marking might valuably pique their interest??

No being critical of your comment - just airing a thought ...

M

[Michelle Young]

As the CWGC don’t seem to have the resources to adequately maintain the cemeteries (my opinion, having been lucky enough to visit a lot this year) I doubt they’d have the resources to mark memorials. 

[Matlock1418]

Just now, Michelle Young said:

As the CWGC don’t seem to have the resources to adequately maintain the cemeteries (my opinion, having been lucky enough to visit a lot this year) I doubt they’d have the resources to mark memorials. 

You've clearly been luckier, or is that unluckier, than me - I thought they were doing a reasonable job at the ones I've visited.

However, that may well be the case.

M

[Perth Digger]

I've got rid of this as well as I know how.

Edited 30 October , 2023 by Perth Digger
off topic

[Buffnut453]

One of the things that continues to amaze me when visiting sites like the Menin Gate, Thiepval, and Tyne Cot is the sheer number of missing names.  It seems to me that, when looking at such memorials, it would be equally striking to see how many of the missing have been found/identified.  Again, it also affords a means of recognizing all those who help recover/identify the fallen.  

Eradicating names of formerly missing soldiers when the panel needs replacing seems a rather inconsistent approach.  According to the CWGC's site on the Menin Gate restoration, the panels are being touched up in-place.  That strongly suggests that we won't see any names removed from that memorial.  Adding a small marker is far quicker and more consistent than leaving the decision to arbitrary effects of the weather on individual panels.  

Edited 30 October , 2023 by Buffnut453

[Perth Digger]

Sassoon's 'intolerably nameless names', Buffnut.

Mike

[Gareth Davies]

5 hours ago, Perth Digger said:

Michelle

I wonder if, now that the centenary has slipped into history, official and political interest in the CWGC is waning? Or is it just a further sign of the general collapse of concern for the UK's past as multiculturalism distorts our history?

Mike

Multiculturism hasn't distorted our history. It has actually both broadened and deepened our history by bringing stories that were generally unknown into the public domain.

[kenf48]

Pleas remain on topic, this thread concerns the action taken by CWGC to amend panels/database when the remains of a missing soldier has been found.  The question has been asked of CWGC for a definitive answer and an undertaking given to repost here. I suggest therefore we wait and remain on topic.

[Buffnut453]

Here's the response from CWGC which came faster than I was expecting:

Thank you for your enquiry, and for suggesting the addition of a small marker to the memorial indicating the discovery of the grave of a previously missing war casualty.

I should explain that when remains are discovered and the graves are identified, the names of these war casualties included on one of our memorials to the missing are removed, only after the new headstone is installed on the war grave, and when the panel on which the name is engraved is next replaced.   

We'd like to thank you for your suggestion, but there would need to be some thought about the practicalities of adding such markers.  Usually, we do not permit items to be attached to memorial panels as this may impede maintenance.  There would also be some concern that we would be adding a marker to a panel that would be due to be replaced.

However, thank you for your consideration regarding your suggestion. Please be assured that the Commission will continue to commemorate the Commonwealth forces that fell in both World Wars, in perpetuity.

Yours sincerely,

Paul

Paul Davis
Customer Service Advisor
 

It confirms that the policy is to remove names from memorials to the missing if an individual is identified.  Paul's point about the potential impact on maintenance is one I hadn't considered and is a valid concern, IMHO.  I'm also not holding my breath that CWGC will do anything with my suggestion.  The response is pretty standard language for "thank you but we're not going to promise to do anything about it."  That' doesn't overly concern me.  I just thought it was a decent idea.  

[Gareth Davies]

No, it doesn't confirm that. Names will only be removed when the panel is replaced which may not be form many decades.

I hope they don't do anything with your suggestion. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[kenf48]

Thank you for posting the valuable response. I have amended your title slightly so that it may more easily be discovered in searches at some later date

[Matlock1418]

12 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

Here's the response from CWGC which came faster than I was expecting:

Thank you for posting CWGC's reply.  Quicker reply than expected but it is probably a fairly stock answer to a FAQ for them. 

It does confirm they will remove names of the no-longer missing - after the provision of a headstone and ... eventually. [I'm still wondering about the current Menin Gate project]

12 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

Paul's point about the potential impact on maintenance is one I hadn't considered and is a valid concern, IMHO. 

He doesn't explain the maintenance CWGC do and what [presumably adverse] impact they think a small marker might potentially cause.

I can understand why CWGC might not want poppies, wooden crosses, vases for flowers, etc. adornments added but a properly designed and installed low profile marker probably wouldn't impose too much.  After all, the americans seem to be able to do it [though I note that illustrated example above does appear to be a granite panel]

A matter of weighing up the pros and cons.

In the interest of equality I also now pose some explanations as to why such marking might not perhaps be wholly desireable:

• Potential hazards/risks might be that if a panel was drilled and the marker not wholly inserted and sealed in place then water and frost/ice might actually cause future damage.  Surface fixing with adhesive/epoxy resin might eventually cause spalling of softer stone.  Drilling of several adjacent locations would likely weaken a panel. One would have to consider and address thermal expansion/contraction, especially on sun facing aspects as seemingly already a potential weathering issue. Gilt gilding of letters might seem a bit glitzy and be expensive. Paint or stickers probably wouldn't be very durable and may start to look tatty - just some examples I fear would be considered negative = So one might perhaps understand CWGC's reticence to change.

On balance I think I am now errring towards the status quo and not marking - least expensive too [but at least I have shown my hand in both directions for the purpose of discussion]

However Buffnut, there was no harm in you posting the idea to CWGC, or on here.

M

Edited 1 November , 2023 by Matlock1418
add

[Theletterwriter]

After I had visited the Portsmouth Naval Memorial about 15 years ago, I noted that there were two men commemorated on the memorial with the name D. Wood. I supplied the CWGC with sufficient information to prove that my g-grandfather was actually D.G.Wood. I was told at the time that the commemoration on the Portsmouth memorial would not be changed until the panel on the memorial was required to be renewed. However, my g-greatgrandfather is currently commemorated on-line as Dugald Gillies Wood and someone from the CWGC has written the initial G on his commemoration in the old paper record.

To answer the OP, I would assume the name of the now identified serviceman would not be removed until that memorial or panel was due to be renovated.

Douglas