Acknowledging Identification on Memorials to the Missing

[Buffnut453]

Hi Folks,

I probably should know the answer to this but my google-fu is failing me. If the remains of a British Commonwealth soldier are found and positively identified, would the soldier's name on a memorial to the missing be marked in any way to show that he has been identified and buried in a marked grave?  

Sorry for my ignorance.  All enlightenment would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Mark

[RussT]

I could be wrong but I had presumed he would eventually be removed from the memorial on which he was named (as missing) and all the digital records on CWGC would be up-dated accordingly.

Regards

Russ

[Michelle Young]

I’ve seen a couple of names still on memorials this year, I don’t think the names are automatically removed, presumably owing to expense. But if and when a panel needs replacement, maybe that’s when the name is removed.

[Buffnut453]

Hmmm....interesting.  Seems like there isn't a solid policy on the issue. 

The restoration of the Menin Gate got me thinking about this topic because their plans mention restoring the panels in place.  For panels that are largely protected from the elements, it could take hundreds of years for them to require replacement.  Likewise, removal of names would mar the panel (IMHO).

One elegant solution would be to add a small marker, either engraved or cemented next to the name, to identify those individuals whose remains have been found/identified.  Such a marker would be a subtle reminder that the work of recovery continues, while also acknowledging the hard work of all involved in recovery and identification of missing soldiers.  

[RussT]

Just now, Buffnut453 said:

Hmmm....interesting.  Seems like there isn't a solid policy on the issue. 

It might be worth contacting CWGC and ask them what their policy is.

If you do, and you get a reply, it would be good if you could post what it is here.

Regards

Russ

[Buffnut453]

Just sent a query to CWGC.  I'll post any response back to this thread.  

[Gareth Davies]

It used to be the case that names were removed but one name I know of wasn’t removed during the recent Thiepval restoration (and the CWGC were well of the error) because they have changed their policy. 

[LDT006]

1 hour ago, Buffnut453 said:

If the remains of a British Commonwealth soldier are found and positively identified, would the soldier's name on a memorial to the missing be marked in any way to show that he has been identified and buried in a marked grave?

The British don't mark the names but the US does by placing a "rosette" next to the name.

This is a very good solution and the panels do not need replacement.

 

[Buffnut453]

Thanks for that insight @LDT006.  I thought the US did mark the name somehow.  I do think it’s an elegant and cost-effective approach to address how best to commemorate those originally listed as missing who’ve since been identified.

[Matlock1418]

I await CWGC's next reply ... however my understanding is that any

• CWGC online commemoration will be/can be updated pretty much immediately [I use the term loosely as CWGC can be quite slow for a number of reasons, not least to suit any ceremonial aspirations]
• then a headstone/named replacement provided in the medium-term [slower for a possible rededication ceremony if a UBS or newly-found (re)burial ceremony, or even possibly on/additionally on a civilian grave elsewhere (if permission can be obtained)]
• and the man's name only removed from the memorial panel when the panel eventually requires replacement [this seems the likely longest term event]

So a man may have an online commemoration and potentially two physical commemorations for a while at CWGC, and elsewhere a potential further private memorial/headstone too.

M

Edited 27 October , 2023 by Matlock1418

[andrew pugh]

Hi All

Would I be right in saying that really  the main memorials to the missing like the Menin Gate, Theipval Memorial. Pozieres Memorial the actual total figures of casualties that they represent and who are recorded on them are in fact not accurate now, because of how many have been found and named over the years. 

Regards

Andy

 

[Gareth Davies]

The database/figures on the CWGC website will be correct because when an error is discovered, the name is removed from the records even though it remains on the memorial.

[Perth Digger]

My understanding is the same as Matlock's. 

When I downloaded the names on the AFSM a few months ago there were 984 names (on the on-line list, that is).

A full report on the unveiling of the memorial in The Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer, 21 May 1932, p.12, claimed that there were 1018 names on the memorial at its inception. 

There is also a IWGC draft plan of 1929 that has a different number.

Mike

[Perth Digger]

PS: http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/arrasflyingmem2.htm

This has 992 casualties.

[andrew pugh]

Good Evening to you all

Thank you for the information given.

Kind Regards

Andy

[Matlock1418]

On 27/10/2023 at 17:28, LDT006 said:

The British don't mark the names but the US does by placing a "rosette" next to the name.

This is a very good solution and the panels do not need replacement.

I agree this looks an elegant interim position, but does require space for the rosette.

As for panel replacement = I understand replacement will normally only be undertaken when a panel(s) physically needs replacement due to weathering or damage etc., not simply because men have now been identified elsewhere.  Whether a major restoration of a memorial, such as currently occuring at the Menin Gate [2023-27], might bring replacement of a panel(s) due to recent discoveries I cannot say [I'm rather hoping any CWGC reply to the request above might provide information this situation - their bulletins refer to repairing panels but the matter of dealing with now-discovered men's names there has so far eluded me on their site]

M

[Gareth Davies]

Why do we need to make any mark alongside the name? The CWGC database will tell you whether the person still has no known grave or not.

[Matlock1418]

13 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

Why do we need to make any mark alongside the name? The CWGC database will tell you whether the person still has no known grave or not.

A local interpretation board explaining such a mark at a memorial could help passing visitors, perhaps those who have spotted such a mark but not being so fully into CWGC etc., understand the still evolving situation - might even catch their longer-term interest in the man's resting place, the more general CWGC work and the history of war period(s).

M

[Gareth Davies]

But why is that needed? There are boards at Thiepval and the Menin Gate and Tyne Cott have info centres that explain this.

[Matlock1418]

31 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said:

But why is that needed? There are boards at Thiepval and the Menin Gate and Tyne Cott have info centres that explain this.

I think the idea of marking just been posted above as an observation and idea for discussion by @LDT006 and I expanded following his and your comments.

I suggest perhaps marking with thus enhanced visiiblity for the potentially initially less-informed / potentially less-engaged - Just picking out individuals and generally for emphasis/interest highlighting those men that have now been located and board information to explain further.  Just as a 'hook' to help increased engagement - it was just an idea(s).

I'm not sure I see harm in it.  Or might there be seen a lack of uniformity in death?

CWGC is about commemoration and education - Whether such an idea is implemented is down others, a.k.a CWGC.

M

[Perth Digger]

I don't see why some sign shouldn't be established to show when remains of someone on a memorial are identified. It shows that the world continually evolves and even, perhaps, that there is still hope for families.

Mike

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, Perth Digger said:

I don't see why some sign shouldn't be established to show when remains of someone on a memorial are identified. It shows that the world continually evolves and even, perhaps, that there is still hope for families.

My feeling

M

[Gareth Davies]

And I reckon it's totally unnecessary. It will cost money, won't always be possible due to space, and I bet the casual visitor referred to above will be none the wiser.

[Perth Digger]

Gareth

It is possible to argue that after all this time it's all a waste of money.

Mike

[Gareth Davies]

I don't disagree Mike.