Dating or location evidence please?

[steve fuller]

Could anyone offer anything other than 3 privates of the Bedfordshire regiment, from uniform, weapons, scenery, etc., please?

Am thinking pre war regulars but am happy to be corrected of course!

(edit; threads on here over the years suggest the star on the right sleeve could be TF Efficiency, marksmanship or other non infantry functions, if anyone is able to offer their best suggestion?)

Edited 24 October , 2023 by steve fuller

[GWF1967]

The man in the centre has Territorial Efficiency Star badges on his right sleeve. 
 

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrkOcjegjdlWxMHtXUU8yA5;_ylu=Y29sbwMEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1698165599/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.greatwarforum.org%2ftopic%2f100953-territorial-efficiency-stars%2f/RK=2/RS=4r9oGvPI8qA5N.m_Kpw_VJCCdyk-

Edited 24 October , 2023 by GWF1967

[steve fuller]

Just now, GWF1967 said:

The man in the centre has Territorial Efficiency Star badges on his right sleeve. 

Ah, you were replying as I added the 'edit' above! So that's definite you think rather than the other option?

[GWF1967]

2 minutes ago, steve fuller said:

Ah, you were replying as I added the 'edit' above! So that's definite you think rather than the other option?

Hi,  
Yes, I believe they are T.F. men rather than regulars. Hopefully someone will be along to give chapter and verse on the badges.   I was also editing as you posted to add the link to a previous thread. 

[steve fuller]

Just now, GWF1967 said:

Hi,  
Yes, I believe they are T.F. men rather than regulars. Hopefully someone will be along to give chapter and verse on the badges.   I was also editing as you posted to add the link to a previous thread. 

Thank you GWF1967 - I 'assumed' regulars as the man on the right looks like someone who pops up in other Regular groups. Should not have assumed  

[munce]

The weapons don't appear to be the standard SMLE - I'm no expert and can't positively identify them but it could indicate a time period of around 1915 when the rifle shortage was most acute.

[FROGSMILE]

These are quite mature men and I suspect that they might be from what were termed “supernumerary companies” specifically formed by the Territorial Force from such superannuated, but keen individuals who were often former volunteer battalion men who had registered with the ‘National Reserve’**.

The efficiency stars had originally been awarded one for each 5-years of attending annual camp and thus returned (reported) as efficient, but this was later dropped to 4-years.  Initially used for guarding static points, the supernumerary companies later formed the basis of the newly raised Royal Defence Corps.

The mixed equipment of obsolescent Slade-Wallace pattern belts, with more modern leather bandolier equipment (1903) is typical of what was issued to the supernumerary companies although it varied between counties according to what was available.

They are armed with .303 single shot Martini Enfield artillery carbines that had previously been allocated by the war office for training and cadet units.  They were easily convertible using a removable sleeve for .22 sub-calibre indoor and outdoor ranges and, early in the war (before Arisakas were purchased and issued), became the most common available firearm used for auxiliary troops on static point guard duties (bridges, telephone exchanges, telegraphs, railheads, dockyards, etc.).

**originally formed as the ‘Veterans Reserve’ from a mixture of ex regulars and ex volunteers, these numbered companies would have subsequently been ‘supernumeraries’ (over and above establishment and requirement) of the 2/5th Home Service Battalion TF.  Their activities are often lost within their parent unit and not well recorded and of course subsequently they became a part of the RDC and so to an extent lost their overt regional identity.

Edited 26 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[steve fuller]

On 24/10/2023 at 14:24, munce said:

The weapons don't appear to be the standard SMLE - I'm no expert and can't positively identify them but it could indicate a time period of around 1915 when the rifle shortage was most acute.

Thanks for the input  

[steve fuller]

On 24/10/2023 at 14:34, FROGSMILE said:

These are quite mature men and I suspect that they might be from what were termed “supernumerary companies” specifically formed by the Territorial Force from such superannuated, but keen individuals who were often former volunteer battalion men who had registered with the National Reserve**.

The efficiency stars had originally been awarded one for each 5-years of attending annual camp and thus returned (reported) as efficient, but this was later dropped to 4-years.  Initially used for guarding static points, the supernumerary companies later formed the basis of the newly raised Royal Defence Corps.

The mixed equipment of obsolescent Slade-Wallace pattern belts, with more modern leather bandolier equipment (1903) is typical of what was issued to the supernumerary companies although it varied between counties according to what was available.

They are armed with .303 single shot Martini Enfield artillery carbines that had previously been allocated by the war office for training and cadet units.  They were easily convertible using a removable sleeve for .22 sub-calibre indoor and outdoor ranges and, early in the war (before Arisakas were purchased and issued), became the most common available firearm used for auxiliary troops on static point guard duties (bridges, telephone exchanges, telegraphs, railheads, dockyards, etc.).

**originally formed as the Veterans Reserve from a mixture of ex regulars and ex volunteers, these numbered companies would have subsequently been ‘supernumeraries’ (over and above establishment and requirement) of the 2/5th Home Service Battalion TF.  Their activities are often lost within their parent unit and not well recorded and of course subsequently they became a part of the RDC and so to an extent lost their overt regional identity.

Thanks @Frogsmile all very valuable.

The regiment did form Volunteer Corps as well as 2nd and 3rd Line TF battalions, so if I can get a close up of the shoulder tags, I may be able to narrow down whether Volunteer or TF.

Odd terrain too. If it was 100 years later, I'd half expect to see a newly built motorway embankment!

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, steve fuller said:

Thanks @Frogsmile all very valuable.

The regiment did form Volunteer Corps as well as 2nd and 3rd Line TF battalions, so if I can get a close up of the shoulder tags, I may be able to narrow down whether Volunteer or TF.

Odd terrain too. If it was 100 years later, I'd half expect to see a newly built motorway embankment!

The Volunteers went through three phases.  First they were known as VTC and wore discrete badges of their own.  In 1917 they were recognised by the War Office and adopted General Service Badges.  Finally, in 1918, they were recategorised as Volunteer Battalions of their local regular regiment by utilising the old Volunteer Force regulations that had remained dormant on the statute book when the TF was formed (they had not been removed by accident rather than design).  For this latter stage they were to wear standard regimental cap badges, but the war ended before all of the battalions had been equipped and they were stood down soon after the Armistice.

The Martini Enfields were an early stopgap and that’s why along with the obsolescent equipment and regimental insignia I’m fairly confident that they are supernumeraries, quite early in the war, who would have been on the books of 2/5th (as the Home Service battalion) until such time as the supernumerary companies merged into the RDC.  The RDC were a separate concept and entity to the VTC/Volunteers.  The RDC were formed specifically from ex volunteer force and ex regulars, whereas VTC required no previous service or experience whatsoever.

Edited 26 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[steve fuller]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The Volunteers went through three phases.  First they were known as VTC and wore discrete badges of their own.  In 1917 they were recognised by the War Office and adopted General Service Badges.  Finally, in 1918, they were recategorised as Volunteer Battalions of their local regular regiment by utilising the old Volunteer Force regulations that had remained dormant on the statute book when the TF was formed (they had not been removed by accident rather than design).

The Martini Enfields were an early stopgap and that’s why along with the equipment and insignia I’m fairly confident that they are supernumeraries who would have been on the books of 3/5th until such time as they merged into the RDC.  The RDC were a separate concept and entity to the VTC/Volunteers.  Broadly speaking RDC were formed specifically from ex volunteer force and ex regulars, whereas VTC required no previous service or experience whatsoever.

Seem to recall the 5th Bn (TF) history referring to using 'Japanese pattern' rifles in 1914 but cant check as its packed (the delights of moving) - are they different to Martini Enfields as Google doesn't seem to know what i am trying to ask it?

There are plenty of articles in the county newspapers about the formation and development of the VDC throughout the war. There was even a Motor unit if memory serves.

If this is the family I think it is, soldiering was pretty much a family business and the man was probably a Regular some years before WW1, maybe a Terrier afterwards. Am hoping to get visibility of the 1921 census for the family I think it is and trace back the man in question to verify.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, steve fuller said:

Seem to recall the 5th Bn (TF) history referring to using 'Japanese pattern' rifles in 1914 but cant check as its packed (the delights of moving) - are they different to Martini Enfields as Google doesn't seem to know what i am trying to ask it?

There are plenty of articles in the county newspapers about the formation and development of the VDC throughout the war. There was even a Motor unit if memory serves.

If this is the family I think it is, soldiering was pretty much a family business and the man was probably a Regular some years before WW1, maybe a Terrier afterwards. Am hoping to get visibility of the 1921 census for the family I think it is and trace back the man in question to verify.

Yes the Martini Enfields were .303 carbines issued to the artillery pre war and subsequently cadet units and finally home defence units early in the war until Japanese long arms (rifles) were purchased.  The latter were Arisakas and nothing like the Martinis in your photo, whose lever actions can be seen.  The latter had Martini breech loading actions and Enfield barrels, hence their nomenclature.  See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini–Enfield

As mentioned, the VTC (as opposed to VDC) were an entirely separate organisation that was civil run, clothed, and led, and that fought for recognition throughout the early years of the war.  The War Office only begrudgingly recognised them and provided uniforms and equipment in 1917, after sustained and vociferous criticism in Parliament about the lack of a coherent policy (as many MPs saw it) for auxiliary units of all types.  It wasn’t until 1918 that the coherence envisaged was finally achieved.

Edited 26 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[steve fuller]

Lovely job - thanks as ever Frogsmile

[CorporalPunishment]

4 hours ago, steve fuller said:

Thanks @Frogsmile all very valuable.

The regiment did form Volunteer Corps as well as 2nd and 3rd Line TF battalions, so if I can get a close up of the shoulder tags, I may be able to narrow down whether Volunteer or TF.

Odd terrain too. If it was 100 years later, I'd half expect to see a newly built motorway embankment!

I thought they looked like plant beds in the background but if they were then they were very steep ones!!.   Pete.

[steve fuller]

19 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I thought they looked like plant beds in the background but if they were then they were very steep ones!!.   Pete.

Doesn't it - looks like soakaways / drainage channels running down the hill.

Looks like one half of a railway track next to the path, or maybe that's there to hold the slope in place.

And a spiky looking bush, the latter making me think Gibraltar, South Africa, India (hence the 'Regulars' query!).

Certainly nothing 'typically' Bedfordshire-esque in the countryside unless its a private estate of some kind maybe.

[GWF1967]

9 minutes ago, steve fuller said:

Doesn't it - looks like soakaways / drainage channels running down the hill.

Looks like one half of a railway track next to the path, or maybe that's there to hold the slope in place.

 

I’m intrigued by the single “rail”, it looks like it may be a wooden plank rather than a metal rail.
Might the location be a rifle range. 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 24/10/2023 at 09:04, steve fuller said:

Could anyone offer anything other than 3 privates of the Bedfordshire regiment, from uniform, weapons, scenery, etc., please?

From my experience of visiting my brother in law in Bedfordshire, I must say that the steepness of the embankment behind the men doesn't immediately strike me as being local.

Could it be an embankment for a dam or a large railway cutting I wonder?

EDIT: Yes I think you can see a rail running behind the men, you can see regularly spaced things that fix the rail to the sleepers chairs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_fastening_system)

It looks as they are standing alongside a ralway platform, the angle of the shot hides the nearest rail, making just the furthest rail visible. And the 'hill with gravel drainage channels' opposite is a cutting.

Edited 27 October , 2023 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[FROGSMILE]

40 minutes ago, steve fuller said:

Doesn't it - looks like soakaways / drainage channels running down the hill.

Looks like one half of a railway track next to the path, or maybe that's there to hold the slope in place.

And a spiky looking bush, the latter making me think Gibraltar, South Africa, India (hence the 'Regulars' query!).

Certainly nothing 'typically' Bedfordshire-esque in the countryside unless its a private estate of some kind maybe.

They’re dressed for guard duty rather than marching order and the man at far right is in charge as he is very slightly forward and has sloped arms.  This would be a typical posture for a man who’s reported his guard present and been ordered to stand his men at ease, at which point the photo was taken.  The body language is familiar.  I imagine that they’re located guarding a key point of some sort, which was the most common role for supernumeraries, who were all vol/Reg veterans.

Edited 27 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, steve fuller said:

Doesn't it - looks like soakaways / drainage channels running down the hill.

Looks like one half of a railway track next to the path, or maybe that's there to hold the slope in place.

And a spiky looking bush, the latter making me think Gibraltar, South Africa, India (hence the 'Regulars' query!).

Certainly nothing 'typically' Bedfordshire-esque in the countryside unless its a private estate of some kind maybe.

I'm now thinking with that steep bank behind them that they may be on guard duty at a reservoir somewhere, possibly at Tring, Hertfordshire. I know it was a function of the home defence units at that time to patrol the canal system and the Grand Union Canal and Tring Reservoirs were and still are an important part of the system.        Pete.

[steve fuller]

Always a pleasure watching collective knowledge at work  

Tring Reservoir, didn't think of that one. Went there bird watching as a kid I seem to recall.

Really appreciate the time taken to look at this everyone, thank you so much. 

Now I need 1921 census access - damn annoying that ancestry cant oblige me rather than having to add another sub to my ever expanding list ... 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Was there an embankment/dam at Tring Reservoir(s) back then?

[steve fuller]

9 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Was there an embankment/dam at Tring Reservoir(s) back then?

Think so (over 40 years ago though) but I was small so may have seemed like there was! 

Edit: Google images looks like multiple bodies of water now, only recall one back then but that may be my memory faulty of course!

Edited 27 October , 2023 by steve fuller

[CorporalPunishment]

On 27/10/2023 at 20:53, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Was there an embankment/dam at Tring Reservoir(s) back then?

The Tring Reservoirs, all four of them, date back to the late Victorian era. Two of them, Wilstone and Startops, have high embankments on two sides and always have had. I know them well being a regular visitor and amateur ornithologist and living just ten miles away at Dunstable.     Pete.               They actually date back to the late George III period having been constructed between 1806 and 1817. My mistake.

Edited 30 October , 2023 by CorporalPunishment

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The Tring Reservoirs, all four of them, date back to the late Victorian era. Two of them, Wilstone and Startops, have high embankments on two sides and always have had. I know them well being a regular visitor and amateur ornithologist and living just ten miles away at Dunstable.     Pete.

This photo gives quite a good impression of one of the embankments.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Good.

And has there ever been a rail line at the bottom of the embankment?