Identifying a Medal ribbon

[Andrew1966]

Good afternoon to you all. I am wondering if anybody might be able to help. The attached picture is of my great grandfather, I am unsure as to when it was taken. Looking at the picture he is clearly wearing medal ribbons, to my knowledge he only ever received The British War Medal, The Victory Medal and much later a 1953 Coronation Medal. So I would be grateful for any help in identifying the ribbon nearest his buttons. I have a reasonable understanding and can recognise most british gallantry and campaign medals ribbons and I know what it looks like to me. 

I would be very grateful if anybody else has any ideas.

Regards Andrew 

[ForeignGong]

Hi Andrew

Can you supply a name and possible service number.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

...and a better quality image of the ribbon?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

22 minutes ago, Andrew1966 said:

I know what it looks like to me. 

Looks like a Military Cross ribbon.

[Andrew1966]

Hi. Thank you for your replies. I agree that's what it looks like to me also. Sadly I do not have a better picture. I have attached a copy of his medal card, Regiment and service numbers.

Regards Andrew 

 

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[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Was he ever a Warrant Officer? I gather they could win the MC.

Another possibility is that the appearance is due to the vagaries of Orthochromatic film of the period, whereby blue appears pale in prints, and red appears dark.
So instead of being white-blue-white might it be blue-red-blue? (I'm clutching at straws here, the only medal ribbon of that colour is an Indian Distinguished Service Medal! I don't suppose he was ever in India??)

[Andrew1966]

Hi. To my knowledge he was never a warrant officer and again to my knowledge no service in India. 

I have tried finding his service records but unfortunately one of Mr Hitlers bombs fell on them and destroyed his along with many others ***.

Regards Andrew 

[tankengine888]

I have a feeling it's just the BWM with exposure playing with the colours. I can't find a particular image to support this though..

[FROGSMILE]

I think they are multiple white stripes at each end rather than one.

[tankengine888]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think they are multiple white stripes at each end rather than one.

That further supports my BWM- Multiple stripes.. notice the middle medal ribbon, the BWM with similarly coloured stripes on the ribbon 

Edited 16 October , 2023 by tankengine888

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

That further supports my BWM- Multiple stripes.. notice the middle medal ribbon, the BWM with similarly coloured stripes on the ribbon 

Except the central darker stripe seems roughly equal in width to each of the white ends.

Edited 16 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Except the central darker stripe seems roughly equal in width to each of the white ends.

True, but I've seen them vary. We'll see what's thrown up as the thread goes.. I must go image hunting.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Andrew1966 said:

Good afternoon to you all. I am wondering if anybody might be able to help. The attached picture is of my great grandfather, I am unsure as to when it was taken. Looking at the picture he is clearly wearing medal ribbons, to my knowledge he only ever received The British War Medal, The Victory Medal and much later a 1953 Coronation Medal. So I would be grateful for any help in identifying the ribbon nearest his buttons. I have a reasonable understanding and can recognise most british gallantry and campaign medals ribbons and I know what it looks like to me. 

I would be very grateful if anybody else has any ideas.

Regards Andrew 

Did you realise that his wife is wearing army uniform too?  Either, Women’s Auxiliary Army Corps, or it’s subsequent title Queen Mary’s Auxiliary Army Corps.

Edited 16 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

I think it’s possible that he might be a holder of the Albert Medal Second Class (Land) awarded for saving life during a land based incident.  As an example these were awarded several times to men who saved life from accidents during grenade throwing training.

There was an equivalent award of similar name and ribbon design for saving life at sea.

I can find no other ribbon that comes close to the ratio between pale and dark.

Edited 16 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think they are multiple white stripes at each end rather than one.

I can see some fringing in the white parts, whether those are real (i.e.are in the original print, or JPEG artefact is hard to tell because of the resolution of the photo. We also can't really tell where the ribbon ends - there could be a dark band at either end. It could well be an Albert Medal.
 

1 hour ago, tankengine888 said:

I have a feeling it's just the BWM

I agree with Frogsmile on this based on the equally proportioned light and dark segments.

Lots of previous posts with image examples of orthochromatic representation:

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I can see some fringing in the white parts, whether those are real (i.e.are in the original print, or JPEG artefact is hard to tell because of the resolution of the photo. We also can't really tell where the ribbon ends - there could be a dark band at either end. It could well be an Albert Medal.
 

I agree with Frogsmile on this based on the equally proportioned light and dark segments.

Lots of previous posts with image examples of orthochromatic representation:

 

Yes it does seem the most likely Dai.  The sea version ribbon has the same ratio of dark and light stripes.

[gnr.ktrha]

3 hours ago, tankengine888 said:

That further supports my BWM- Multiple stripes.. notice the middle medal ribbon, the BWM with similarly coloured stripes on the ribbon 

Hi,
    I think in your photo Tankengine888 that the Victory medal and BWM are on the wrong ribbons. This seems to have been a fairly common occurrence, I have seen a number of period mounted medals, probably mounted by the recipient, where the Victory and BWM are mixed up,

[AOK4]

16 minutes ago, gnr.ktrha said:

Hi,
    I think in your photo Tankengine888 that the Victory medal and BWM are on the wrong ribbons. This seems to have been a fairly common occurrence, I have seen a number of period mounted medals, probably mounted by the recipient, where the Victory and BWM are mixed up,

I agree.

[Andrew Upton]

13 hours ago, Andrew1966 said:

...Looking at the picture he is clearly wearing medal ribbons, to my knowledge he only ever received The British War Medal, The Victory Medal and much later a 1953 Coronation Medal. So I would be grateful for any help in identifying the ribbon nearest his buttons....

 

For what it's worth Andrew I agree with everyone who has already suggested it is the BWM ribbon, just as typically rendered by orthochromatic film (causing the blue stripes to appear near-white) and the orange to go very dark), eg:

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

For what it's worth Andrew I agree with everyone who has already suggested it is the BWM ribbon, just as typically rendered by orthochromatic film (causing the blue stripes to appear near-white) and the orange to go very dark), eg:

Ordinarily I’d bow very quickly to your excellent knowledge of medal ribbons Andrew, but the trouble with that hypothesis is that if one expands the original photograph to its maximum size, it’s plain that the dark shade between the whiter ends is narrower than either of those ends, whereas with the BWM, by comparison, the dark shade is significantly wider, as shown in your example.  All that said, I do not of course know what the ribbon is for sure.

 

Edited 17 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

I can't see an MC card for him in WO389/11.

There's only one Cocker, 2nd/Lt. Yorks LI.

I did scroll through until I spotted a CSM as I wasn't certain the cards showed all awards or just officers.

TEW

[chaz]

odd, a WW1 pair and 53 coronation , no WW2 medals?

[CorporalPunishment]

I also think it's the BWM and as it's the only ribbon he is wearing it's easy to date the photo. The BWM was introduced in July 1919 and the VM in September 1919 so that makes it simple enough. I definitely do not think it's the ribbon of the Albert Medal.      Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

I also think it's the BWM and as it's the only ribbon he is wearing it's easy to date the photo. The BWM was introduced in July 1919 and the VM in September 1919 so that makes it simple enough. I definitely do not think it's the ribbon of the Albert Medal.      Pete.

I don’t doubt that the BWM is the most logical medal ribbon for it to be for one moment.  It’s just that the central dark section of the ribbon that simply doesn’t square with that.  How do you account for the dark central section of the ribbon being so different proportionally Pete?  I also agree that the Albert Medal 2nd Class is a longer shot and I’d expect the man’s name to exist somewhere in in a list of recipients if it were that.  At the moment we’re just fixed on dates and the colour proportions as clues to identify. 

If someone with clever software can enlarge the original image to show the ribbon’s colour proportions it would be very helpful.  On the surface of it it doesn’t seem like it can be distortion of the image caused by light and shadow, as otherwise presumably both, the lighter and darker shades, would be equally affected. 

Edited 17 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

26 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t doubt that the BWM is the most logical medal ribbon for it to be for one moment.  It’s just that the central dark section of the ribbon that simply doesn’t square with that.  How do you account for the dark central section of the ribbon being so different proportionally Pete?  I also agree that the Albert Medal 2nd Class is a longer shot and I’d expect the man’s name to exist somewhere in in a list of recipients if it were that.  At the moment we’re just fixed on dates and the colour proportions as clues to identify. 

If someone with clever software can enlarge the original image to show the ribbon’s colour proportions it would be very helpful.  On the surface of it it doesn’t seem like it can be distortion of the image caused by light and shadow, as otherwise presumably both, the lighter and darker shades, would be equally affected. 

Frogsmile, unlike you I see nothing wrong with the proportions of the centre section of the medal ribbon. Also, like you, I have looked at countless images of men wearing that ribbon but we obviously have a difference of opinion in this particular case.       Pete.