Affair at Nery, Sep. 1st, 1914. Miscellaneous.

[Templar]

Hello, everyone. I am new to the Forum, but i think i am putting this Thread in the correct Place. I am writing a Book from the Perspective of a German Dragoon (not an Officer) of the 17th Mecklenburg Dragoon Regiment.

Question#1: A Patrol from the 17th Dragoon Regiment was sent out under Vize-Feldwebel von Michael (i cannot find a full Name) from the Village of Le Plessis Chatelain. Wikipedia says, and i have not found anything saying otherwise, that they went West to scout out the South Side of Nery, and after dismounting, creeping up and looking over a Stone Wall, saw a British Corporal shaving. I am wondering where exactly this would have been. Would this have been a Corporal of L Batt. or of the Queen's Bays. I do not know how far south the British Camp Extended. Did it extend down to the Sugar Factory?

Question#2: The Patrol returned to their Horses and raced back to the Division. Who would they report to? Their Regimental Commander (Hermann Freiherr von der Heyden-Rynsch), or to the Divisional Commander, General Garnier.

Question#3: The 4th K.D. was stationed at Le Plessis Chatelain, but where exactly was the 17th Mecklenburg Dragoon Regiment.

I have done (what seems to me) a lot of Research using free Information. I am writing a Historical Fiction Novel, but i want the Situations to be as realistic as possible. Perhaps i am being unrealistic, but i have too little Experience to know.

I will likely think of other Questions, but i think that this is a good Place to start.

Here is a Map for Reference that i have been using

https://www.britishbattles.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2-battle-nery-1200-1.jpg

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, Templar said:

Hello, everyone. I am new to the Forum, but i think i am putting this Thread in the correct Place. I am writing a Book from the Perspective of a German Dragoon (not an Officer) of the 17th Mecklenburg Dragoon Regiment.

Question#1: A Patrol from the 17th Dragoon Regiment was sent out under Vize-Feldwebel von Michael (i cannot find a full Name) from the Village of Le Plessis Chatelain. Wikipedia says, and i have not found anything saying otherwise, that they went West to scout out the South Side of Nery, and after dismounting, creeping up and looking over a Stone Wall, saw a British Corporal shaving. I am wondering where exactly this would have been. Would this have been a Corporal of L Batt. or of the Queen's Bays. I do not know how far south the British Camp Extended. Did it extend down to the Sugar Factory?

Question#2: The Patrol returned to their Horses and raced back to the Division. Who would they report to? Their Regimental Commander (Hermann Freiherr von der Heyden-Rynsch), or to the Divisional Commander, General Garnier.

Question#3: The 4th K.D. was stationed at Le Plessis Chatelain, but where exactly was the 17th Mecklenburg Dragoon Regiment.

I have done (what seems to me) a lot of Research using free Information. I am writing a Historical Fiction Novel, but i want the Situations to be as realistic as possible. Perhaps i am being unrealistic, but i have too little Experience to know.

I will likely think of other Questions, but i think that this is a good Place to start.

Here is a Map for Reference that i have been using

https://www.britishbattles.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/2-battle-nery-1200-1.jpg

With regards to question 2, other than in exceptional circumstances the routine and well embedded tactical protocol was to report to his own unit first, probably to his immediate superior.  From there it was routine to flow up the chain of command.  In other words bottom up, not top down.

I wish you well with your book.  Forum member @GreyC might be able to add more, or know someone who can.

Edited 6 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Templar]

Thank you very much. That Answer was helpful. I do not want to be too much of a Bother, but would you know how the Unit would proceed from there? In this Instance, the Patrol reports (i am guessing the immediate Superior Officer would be the Regimental Commander), and Word is passed up to the General. What would the Regiment be doing. Their Commander knows the Situation. would he inform his Regiment, or would he wait? and during this, would the Patrol be on standby, or return to their part of the Regiment?

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, Templar said:

Thank you very much. That Answer was helpful. I do not want to be too much of a Bother, but would you know how the Unit would proceed from there? In this Instance, the Patrol reports (i am guessing the immediate Superior Officer would be the Regimental Commander), and Word is passed up to the General. What would the Regiment be doing. Their Commander knows the Situation. would he inform his Regiment, or would he wait? and during this, would the Patrol be on standby, or return to their part of the Regiment?

The immediate superior for a dragoon as you’ve said he is would be a junior officer, probably a lieutenant or captain.  I’m not sure how German cavalry were organised at the lowest level, troop or squadron, but I know that forum members Greyc, @JWK @bierastor @AOK4 will be able to advise.  The basic thing is to understand that there is a chain-of-command and that these reports are passed upwards. By reporting in that manner he would already have returned back to the lowest level of his unit.  From there his officer would report upwards and might, if he felt it appropriate, have taken the dragoon who made the sighting with him to report upwards, so that any questions could be asked directly of the individual who was actually there observing the enemy.  The other sub-units of the regiment might be carrying out some other task, including a reconnaissance in another direction.  Other sub-units could be preparing for other tasks, or resting.  It depends on what the Divisional headquarters had tasked the regiment to do.

Edited 6 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Templar]

Alright, thank you for your Time, and your Clarification. Your Answers are very much appreciated. Is there a specific Route i should take to make Contact with Greyc and/or AOK4?  Or is it not appropriate this soon? I am asking because i want as much Information as i can get, but i also don't want to rush anybody and make them uncomfortable or break any unspoken but acknowledged Rules of Etiquette.

[stevenbecker]

Having been on the end of this, I can say that the patrol officer (Troop Lt) would have sent out a patrol as ordered by his commander (Sqn Leander (capt or Maj) 

on return the details go back to the Troop officer to Sqn Officer to Regimental officer and further up to the Divison commander and further Corps Commander

Reports can by verble or written on the patrols return, most often written, by either to patrol leader or Troop officer if sumerizing all his patrols for his Sqn Commander.

Who again sumerizes all patrols by Sqn commanders to Regimental Comander

Who again sumerizes all reports to Brigade Commander

And so forth up to the top

So what the soldier sees on his patrol can go to the top, so what and how you say it, affects to line of info for any one of these commanders to act.

Confussed you yet

[GreyC]

Hi,

Frogsmile contacted us by naming us in his posts. So any of us can decide whether or not to join in.

Here is the regimental history of the 17th DR covering WW1. Have you consulted it?

Geschichte des 1. Großherzoglich Mecklenburgischen Dragoner-Regiments Nr. 17 von Paul Frh. von Troschke. Berlin 1938.

With the subdivisions of a Dragoner Regiment:

A German DR regiment equals 5 Eskadrons

An Eskadron is divided into four platoons

A platoon is made up of two subdivisions

A platoon consists of three Abmärsche

There were also sth called “Beritt“ which equals a Korporalschaft in the infantry, consisting of about 15 soldiers.

With regards to who he would report to after his discoveries: he would report to the officer who send him onto his mission.

Best,

GreyC

 

[Templar]

Stevenbecker, your Answer is very clear and straightforward, no Confusion whatsoever. GreyC, i have not consulted the Book. I have known of it, but have as of yet not found a free Version. The rest of your Text is very clear and informative, but i do have 2 Questions. #1: How many Men were in an Abmärsche? #2: Was a Platoon made up of two Subdivisions, but could also be split into 3 Abmärsche?

[stevenbecker]

Temp,

Just to expand

There could be any number of patrols out there looking for any thing, and or on a certain job given to the Patrol Officer, like check a ford or bridge

Once all patrols return, the patrol commanders would pass on these details to higher command

Patrols can be any number of men or unit size depending on what type of info the Higher commander wants

You can use stealth, and or fight for that info, having done both, one is interesting, while the other is fun

[charlie2]

As far as I am aware the history of DR17 is not available online but you could buy a downloadable copy in PDF format for 7€ from Patrick at https://military-books.lima-city.de/hp23/017.html otherwise I think your only other option is through your local library.

8 hours ago, GreyC said:

A German DR regiment equals 5 Eskadrons

Only four of which joined the field army on mobilisation, the fifth remained in the home garrison as a replacement/reserve Eskadron. The establishment of a 4 Eskadron Dragoner Regiment was 36 Officers and 688 NCOs and Men.

A diagram of the make up of an Eskadron, if an Abmarsch was one third of a Platoon you can do the maths 

Charlie

 

 

Edited 7 October , 2023 by charlie2

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie2 said:

As far as I am aware the history of DR17 is not available online but you could buy a downloadable copy in PDF format for 7€ from Patrick at https://military-books.lima-city.de/hp23/017.html otherwise I think your only other option is through your local library.

Only four of which joined the field army on mobilisation, the fifth remained in the home garrison as a replacement/reserve Eskadron. The establishment of a 4 Eskadron Dragoner Regiment was 36 Officers and 688 NCOs and Men.

A diagram of the make up of an Eskadron, if an Abmarsch was one third of a Platoon you can do the maths 

Charlie

 

 

Sorry I forgot to add you to the tags Charlie.  I was just about to ask if anyone had an ORBAT diagram (in part for my own interest too) and you immediately popped up with one as if by symbiosis.  Spooky!

[charlie2]

47 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Sorry I forgot to add you to the tags Charlie.  I was just about to ask if anyone had an ORBAT diagram (in part for my own interest too) and you immediately popped up with one as if by symbiosis.  Spooky!

Not to worry Frogsmile, I‘m only a first year apprentice compared with the others you mentioned. 

Just for you, from the 1909 Drill Regs for the Cavalry- an Eskadron in 4s in column of route echeloned right and 2s echeloned left.

Charlie

 

 

[GreyC]

2 hours ago, charlie2 said:

I‘m only a first year apprentice compared with the others you mentioned.

That´s being too modest, Charlie. Thank you for the additions!

GreyC

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, charlie2 said:

Not to worry Frogsmile, I‘m only a first year apprentice compared with the others you mentioned. 

Just for you, from the 1909 Drill Regs for the Cavalry- an Eskadron in 4s in column of route echeloned right and 2s echeloned left.

Charlie

 

 

Thank you Charlie, I like these diagrams because they are usually far more descriptive than words.  I’m sure that @Templar will find them useful for his narrative too.  Vielen dank to @GreyC too.

Edited 7 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[GreyC]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Vielen dank to @GreyC too.

Pleasure!

GreyC

[Templar]

This is much more Information than i anticipated. Thank you all for the unexpected but very pleasant Surprise. Stevenbecker, thank you for expanding on how Patrols operated. Charlie, i have come across these Diagrams before and taken a Look, but without any Context or Explanation found them practically useless. Thank you for giving them Meaning.

I have 3 more Questions regarding the Affair at Nery. First, i read that the 17th Dragoon Regiment was held in reserve, and from the available Maps it seems as though they were in the immediate Vicinity of Feu Farm. It looks as if it was in Rifle Range of the British Positions, and if so, would the 17th Dragoons be firing upon them? Secondly, there is mention of a Cavalry charge by the 17th Dragoons towards British Men lying in a Field. Is  Do you know any of the finer Details, such as if they were attacking the Queen's Bays or L Battery, and was it near the Sugar Beet Factory? Thirdly, there was a Ruckus at the Sugar Beet Factory between the 18th Dragoon Regiment, who drove British Troops out of the Factory, and the British Troops, who sometime later returned to destroy the Machine Guns the Germans had placed there. Details would much appreciated?

By the Way, obscure Articles like this is where i have gotten a good Portion of finer Details. this is a Record of various German Cavalry Units written by a German Cavalry Inspector. If any of you know of an English Translation, that would also be very helpful.

https://archive.org/details/diedeutschekaval00pose/page/n37/mode/2up?view=theater

I would like to thank you all very much for your Help.

[stevenbecker]

This is part of something I wrote years ago about a Light Horse Regt and patrols on the western front, hope its of some use, which follows your first ideas;

 

The XXII Corps Mounted Regiment and the 2^nd Battle of the Marne

By Steve Becker

On the afternoon of the 27 July 1918 Corporal Jack Taggart lead a four man mounted patrol from 1 Troop “D” Squadron XXII Corps Mounted Regiment out into the shattered debris of the Ardre River valley to locate the German front line. He followed the course of the Ardre River until encountering a unit of more then 100 Germans, which forced the patrol to retire. Nonetheless Jack dismounted with a Hotchkiss gun and engaged the Germans allowing his three mates with the horses to move to cover, then returned on foot to continue the fight. Corporal Taggart and Private Vic Grist then moved to reconnaissance the German position and under heavy fire were forced to jump into the river Ardre to escape the German machine guns. Jack must have wondered at this time, up to his ears in water and mud how he came to be there in the middle of France and why he wasn’t in sunny Egypt and Palestine with the rest of the 4^th Light Horse Regiment?

Near the end of June 1918 the Great German offensives had at last slowed down, however numerous German Divisions remained unemployed. Knowing this General Foch, the newly created Generalissimo of the Allied Armies in France, gathered a number of Allied Divisions to form a reserve for his own offensive.

Still Foch didn’t want to wait for the next German onslaught; instead, he launched a series of assaults aimed at the large bulge between Soissons and Rheims along the Marne River, which pointed like a knife point at the heart of France and at Paris.

These attacks started around the middle of July 1918 with strikes by the Tenth French Army on the western side of the salient and the Ninth French Army, including American divisions at Chateau Thierry to the south, then the Fifth French Army south west of Rheims on the 18 July 1918.

The attacks by the Fifth French Army soon bogged down and the British XXII Corps entered the battle near Marfaux on the 20 July 1918.

By the 27 July the XXII Corps had advanced along the line of the Ardre River and at last reported that German units were retiring, General Godley the commander of the XXII Corps now ordered his Cavalry to take over the advance and the XXII Corps Mounted Regiment, composed of Australian Light Horsemen and New Zealand Mounted Riflemen, found themselves in the front line of the Allied Armies.

The XXII Corps Mounted Regiment, was a new name of an old unit, formed from the 2^nd Anzac Light Horse Regiment when the II Anzac Corps was disbanded in December 1917, who along with the 1^st Anzac Light Horse Regiment (13^th Light Horse Regiment) of the I Anzac Corps, which were used to form the Cavalry for the newly formed Australian Corps, General Birdwood the new Corps Commander didn’t need two Light Horse Regiments for his Corps, and Lieutenant General Sir Alexander Godley asked that the 2^nd Anzac Light Horse Regiment be retained by the II Anzac Corps when it changed its name to the XXII British Corps, forcing the change of name from the 2^nd Anzac Light Horse Regiment to the XXII Corps Mounted Regiment, this change from a Light Horse Regiment to a Mounted Regiment may have came about due to the commander of the XXII Corps being a New Zealand Officer. The Regiment still contained the former Regimental Head Quarters with “B” and “D” Squadrons of the old 4^th Light Horse Regiment and with the attached Squadron of the New Zealand Otago Mounted Rifles. The strength of the Regiment at the start of the battle was 25 officers and 412 men.

Since the 27 March 1918, the XXII Corps was near Ypres, where in April a Composite Battalion of the Regiment was formed, with the New Zealand Cyclist battalion, and used to fight the Germans at Kemmel, near Ypres. When an order from General Foch sent General Godley’s Corps to be loaded on trains and moved to an area on the Somme. The XXII Corps Mounted Regiment moved on the 5 June to Blendecques and Coupelle on the 6 June, to Wavans on the 7 June, and to Bourdon on the 8 June arriving on the 9 June at Ossie (Oissy) in Picardy Somme. There the Regiment waited for over a month as the great German offensive on the Aisne died away. The XXII Corps Mounted Regiment boarded a Train on the 14 July at Pont Remy and moved to Pont Sur Seine on the 15 July, on the 16 July they were at Suzanne and finally stopping on the 17 July at Bergeres Les Vertus and moved to Ay near Epernay on the 20 July and the Bois de Talma near St Imoges on the 22 July. The XXII Corps was concentred around Revigny east of Rheims in the Forth French Armies area, with the units arriving around the 16 July 1918.

On the 18 July the Fifth French Army comprising the I French Colonial Corps, the V French Corps, the I French Cavalry Corps and the II Italian Corps carried out its part in the battle plan and attacked south west of Rheims from Ormes to Festigny, only all too soon the Italians were in trouble and the corps needed to be replaced. The only allied reserves close on hand was the XXII British Corps near Chalons and rapidly moved replacing the Italians on the night 19/20 July 1918 fitting in between the 2^nd Colonial Division (I Colonial Corps) and 14^th French Division (V French Corps).

The XXII Corps near Pourcy, used as a centre line the river Ardre valley with the 62^nd Division on the right bank alone the Bois de Reims and the 51^st Highland Division on the left bank of the river valley with the Bois de Courton Ridge. Heavy fighting continued for a week as the British fought there way up the valley along both ridges against the strong German defences of the 123^rd German Division with its 178^th, 351^st Infantry and 106^th Reserve Infantry Regiments and the newly arrived 240^th German Division.

Marfax had fallen on the 23 July, in an attack by the New Zealand Cyclist Battalion supported by the 2/4 Hampshire Battalion, losing two officers and 19 men killed, and three officers and 70 men wounded. While Chaumuzy fell on the 26 July.

On the morning of the 27 July the assaults continued lead by the 51^st Highland Division with the 62^nd Division in reserve, the advance began at different times due to the terrain with the left flank 153^rd Brigade at 6.10 am then the 187^th Brigade (62^nd Division) in the centre at 6.56 am and the 152^nd Brigade on the right flank at 7.30 am.

The creeping barrage moved at 100 metres each eight minutes with three 20 minutes stops. French Light Renault tanks of a Tank Battalion, used in the earlier attacks, were left behind as they were unable to move due the sodden ground from the torrential rains and limited fuel supply.

The first objective was taken by the 51^st Division 8.45 am and the second objective at 10 am, along the whole line only one prisoner was taken and it became apparent to the Corps Commander that the Germans were in retreat.

General Godley during the change over of divisions ordered a new advance to begin at 1 pm and the Corps Cavalry moved forward to Nanteuil where Lieutenant Colonel Stanley Hindhaugh received his orders from General Braithwaite, commander of the 62^nd Division to “push forward rapidly and seize the line Bligny to Montagne de Bligny, and as soon as this line was in there possession, the (62^nd) division would move up to relieve them”.

Lieutenant Colonel Hindhaugh was given command of a Composite force comprising the XXII Corps Mounted Regiment, the New Zealand Cyclist Battalion and the French Tank Battalion, and moved to Marfaux to set up his Head Quarters while command of the Mounted Regiment reverted to Major Roy McLeish.

Both Major Thomas Williams “B” Squadron and Captain Bertram Burnie “D” Squadron (less two Troops retained as Head Quarters protection), moved from Nanteuil at 2.45 pm while the Otago Squadron under Major Gordon Mitchell remained in reserve, Major McLeish moved his “RHQ” to north east of Chaumuzy.

“B” Squadron covered the Left front of the 185^th Brigade as it advanced from Chaumuzy while “D” Squadron covered the Right front of the 186^th Brigade near the Bois de Rouvroy during the advance to Bligny and Montagne de Bligny they pushed throw the infantry who’s patrols followed on behind the cavalry screen.

At the start Light Horse patrols of four men sections were dispatched to uncover German strong points and establish the German line of resistance. These would then be cleared by the light horse patrols or could be reinforced with a larger light horse force or posted and left for the Infantry to destroy.

No sooner then patrols from Lieutenant Claude Apps 1 Troop “D” Squadron left the British front line, when heavy machine gun fire was directed onto them from their right near the Bois des Dix Hommes, Bois de Hyermont and from a number of posts along the German front line, this slowed the advance as the light horse patrols manoeuvred around them or destroyed them.

One Patrol under Corporal Jack Taggart ran into a German force of 100 men on the northern side of the Ardre River and after engaging them discovered there strength and location then returned with the details to Lieutenant Apps.

Corporal Walter Scott was at work against another position when he was wounded while the Squadron Commander, Captain Burnie and Squadron Sergeant Major, Harry Ayres brought out the Hotchkiss machine gun sections to engage the enemy posts forcing the Germans to retire.

A patrol with Private William Bell avoided the German defences and entered the town of Bligny and found the Germans in some strength, then returned with the intelligence.

Mean while on “B” Squadron’s front the Germans were found north of the Nardi Farm and in the Bois de Eclisse by patrols of Lieutenant George Gordon’s 2 Troop, who went out after the enemy defences to scout and secure useful positions until the Infantry patrols came up. As one of these enemy positions were found the Hotchkiss machine gun sections, under men like Private Hugh Newth, were dispatched and after an engagement that wounded all his crew Newth captured the German position allowing the infantry patrols to advance.

When another patrol ran into the German defences, Private Frank Elliott was sent to see where the enemy machine gun positions were sited, when completed Elliott returned with the vial information allowing the position to be taken.

During this time, the French had not come up on the British left flank and a patrol under Corporal Christopher Christofferson was sent to establish the left flank and find the French, this he succeeded in doing allowing the British 153^rd Brigade (51^st Division) to come up and who cleared the woods of the Bois de Eclisse and by the end of the day gaining touch with the 14^th French Division.

In the late afternoon most of the German covering positions had been destroyed or they had retired to their main defence line based around Bligny and the Montagne de Bligny, this now allowed a number of deep Light Horse patrols in force to move towards our objectives.

The first, 2 Troop under Lieutenant Joseph Nott “D” Squadron, moved forward with his Troop to Bligny through the Bois de Rouvroy, where they found the Germans strongly entrenched and the Troop were forced to retire. 1 Troop under Lieutenant Apps moved out to support Lieutenant Nott along the river Ardre only to be held up by strong German defences and Sergeant Bill Smith’s 4 Troop “B” Squadron came to his support.

Lieutenant Arthur Lord’s 3 Troop “B” Squadron was sent to find a crossing place of the Ardre River to enable the cavalry to move from the south side of the river to the north along the Bligny to Montagne de Bligny line.

Sergeant James Stevenson’s 1 Troop “B” Sqn was ordered to secure the left flank of the Corps on the Montagne de Bligny. There he gained a lose hold on the hill under very heavy German pressure which force him to retire to a less exposed position, there the Troop held on until the Infantry came up during the night.

Lieutenant Gordon’s 2 Troop “B” Squadron advanced to support Sergeant Stevenson and captured a German 77mm gun, only the Germans attacked in force and Gordon could make little progress against a stiffening resistance.

Some time around 8 pm the Otago Squadron was called forward to support the light horse between Bligny and Montagne de Bligny. They reached the line around 9 pm only to be held up by German fire, a force of two officers and 50 men dismounted and moved to capture Bligny only they couldn’t gain touch with the units on their flanks and took there place between the town of Bligny and the Montagne de Bligny to hold back the German counter attacks. During the struggle Trooper’s Angus MacGibbon, Bill Hornell and Dave Williamson were active in the fighting while Sergeant John Weaver brought up food and ammunition keeping the squadron in the fight, while Farrier Sergeant Bill Hutchings was killed.

At 7.40 pm the 185^th and 186^th Brigades advanced to support the Cavalry only to find the Light Horse and Mounted Rifles were short of their objectives by roughly 500 meters and the town of Bligny and the Montagne de Bligny were still in enemy hands. The infantry were to complete the relief of the cavalry by midnight only this was not completed till about 2.14 am when the 2/4^th Hampshire Battalion came up delayed due to the rain and darkness. The Hampshire Battalion along with the 1/5^th Devonshire Battalion was fresh from Palestine having recently joined the 62^nd Division before this battle.

The German defenders during that afternoon were the rear guards of the 240^th German Division, who fought a delaying action as they retied onto their main defensive line round Bligny and the Montagne de Bligny. The 240^th Division (a third Class (low quality) formation, had arrived from the Argonne front on the 20 July, where it was resting following the fighting around Bethune in April, and where the Division suffered heavy casualties. Elements of the 469^th, 470^th and 471^st Infantry Regiments were manning positions in front Bligny and the Montagne de Bligny during the week and reported Light Horse patrols during the evening and night of the 27 July.

On the morning of the 28 July the advance began at 4 am covered again by the XXII Corps Mounted Regiment. Rain had fallen all night as the 186^th Brigade steeped off only to be again struck by fire from the Bois des Dix Hommes on the right. This slowed movement on that front until the French 77^th Division came up on that flank and cleared the wood.

At 4 am Lieutenant Nott’s Troop had moved forward past Bligny with patrols to Ausilly where they found the village strongly held. The Otago Squadron had replaced “B” Squadron during the night and patrols of New Zealanders went out past the Montagne de Bligny to discover the extent of the German defences at Sarcy, while another patrol was sent to the village of Chambrecy. One patrol with Signaller Peter Weaver went on a reconnaissance of the village of Bligny when they came under heavy fire during which one of the men was wounded. The village was found to be strongly held by the Germans and Signaller Weaver despite being himself wounded recovered his mate and brought him back to our lines, he was later awarded a DCM.

Bligny was entered during the day by the 2/4^th Duke of Wellington’s and 2/4^th Hampshire Battalion (186^th Brigade) but not captured and fighting went on there all day and was not completed till 4 pm in the afternoon.

Mean while the 185^th Brigade moved between Bligny and Montagne with the 1/5^th Devon Battalion on the right and the 8^th West Yorkshire’s on the left with the 2/5^th West Yorkshires in support and captured part of the Montagne de Bligny slopes by 7 am capturing 69 prisoners and nine machine guns, but failed to drive the Germans completely from the hill.

Around 8.25 am the 51^st Highland Division with the 153^rd Brigade on the left and 152^nd Brigade on the right took up the advance during which the 6^th Black Watch took Chambrecy. The 7^th Gordon’s joined the 8^th West Yorks on Montagne de Bligny that night allowing the 14^th French Division to move up and take over Chambrecy.  The 154^th Brigade 51^st Division replaced the 152^nd and 153^rd Brigades later that night. The 1/4^th Gordon’s relieving the 7^th Gordon’s by 3 am on Montagne.

Small numbers of Light Horse and Mounted Rifle patrols continued to be sent during the day, only not on the same scale as the day before, and all patrols were withdrawn around 4 pm. German resistance was growing as they fought to allow there formations to retire from other areas of the salient. The Germans had decided to retire from the salient on the night of the 26/27 July and the first stage started at 11 am with a limited withdrawal. The withdrawals would be by stages and would take place over a week. Still German doctrine allowed continued counter attacks to slow the enemy forces so they couldn’t exploit the withdrawal.

On the 29 July fighting continued on the Montagne de Bligny by “D” Company 2/5^th West Yorks 185^th Brigade who attacked at 7.45 pm to clear the remainder of the feature. The hill was taken by two platoons from “D” Company while the two other platoons disappeared when they lost there way in the darkness and where captured, the company lost one officer and six other ranks killed and a further 20 men were gassed, one officer and 45 men were missing believed prisoners. Other Brigades restricted their actions to consolidating their gains due to the poor weather and fatigue.

On the morning of the 30 July elements of newly arrived German 50^th Division, a first class (high quality) Division, which replaced the 240^th Division during the night, counter attacked at the Bois les Houleux against the 186^th Brigade, and made some ground in a gap between the 62^nd Division and 77^th French Division until driven back in the late afternoon. The 62^nd Division and most of the British XXII Corps was relieved by both the 14^th and 77^th French Division’s during the night 30/31 July leaving only the 154^th Brigade 51^st Division in the line.

 

[Templar]

I appreciate it. Even though it does not relate specifically to the Affair at Nery, it does give me a better Idea of what Decisions an Individual may make when on patrolling Missions.

Again, thank you very much. ("O, frabjous Day! Calooh! Callay!" he chortled in his Joy.)

[stevenbecker]

Temp,

Yes I was thinking we used the four men unit as the smallest sub unit of the Cavalry Regt, I am unsure how the Germans used there horse, but must of had some thing like?

The four man Section, was three men in the firing line and one man to hold the horses, when dismounted

Groups of four men made up a Troop and so forth. (the Aussie movie The Light Horseman shows that four men section)

While acting as part of a Troop, they could and did operate on their own, used buy us as scouts when possible

[Templar]

I did some looking, and some Math and this is what i came up with.

A German Imperial 4 Squadron Regiment had 36 Officers, 688 NCO's and other Ranks.

Cavalry Regiment=5 Squadrons, 1 of which stayed behind.

Squadron: 9 Officers, 172 Men=4 Züge (Platoon)

Zug: 2 Officers, 43 Men=3 Abmärsche

Abmarsch: 14 Men, +1 extra

I do not know if it was broken down further.

Edited 8 October , 2023 by Templar

[stevenbecker]

Like all Military units, these are never at full strength

Attachment and detachments and of cause sick

Even in Aug 1914 the units would have had a number of scouting parties out looking for whats out there

Cavalry being to main units searching

It would also depend on the order of march of the German units, with flank, advance, and rear guards 

A Infantry marching column, would always been covered by other units, mostly cavalry

[FROGSMILE]

On 07/10/2023 at 10:19, charlie2 said:

Not to worry Frogsmile, I‘m only a first year apprentice compared with the others you mentioned. 

Just for you, from the 1909 Drill Regs for the Cavalry- an Eskadron in 4s in column of route echeloned right and 2s echeloned left.

Charlie

 

 

Charlie to add some credence to Templars narrative he really needs some German input from contemporary records as currently it seems there’s too much anglophone detail that, whilst undoubtedly helpful, might not be accurate for the Imperial German Army of 1914.  Do you or GreyC know if there are any early war accounts by German cavalry of any rank that have been published and that might be helpful to Templar?  Perhaps relevant excerpts could then be identified and translated.

[GreyC]

Soldiers on horseback are not really my cup of tea, I am afraid. I only know the basics, just.

I do have a few photos of them in my collection for good measure, though. E.g. this one from a 17th Dragoner in fieldgrey on horseback, probably with his parentsat his side.

GreyC

Edited 8 October , 2023 by GreyC

[charlie2]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Perhaps relevant excerpts could then be identified and translated.

I‘m away from home for a few days, but if Templar sticks around I‘ll have a look if I can find anything when I get home. It has to be realised, as I am sure do, what Templar is interested in is a small occurrence in a big war, the German OH passes over the bivouac incident in a sentence (Vol 3, p 200), „Der Weltkampf um Ehre und Recht“ (a semi OH) is similarly brief. The histories of DR17, DR18 and FAR3 are going to be the best sources for information as they were directly involved. None of the histories are available online and I haven‘t seen them. As is usual regimental histories vary in quality ranging from brief transcriptions from the War Diary through factual descriptions of actions to embellished accounts that are more fitting to „Boy‘s Own“.

What I did find in the history of DR19 which passed through the area on the 2nd September is a description of what they found on the battlefield - about 100 dead horses, many dead English and wrecked guns and limbers, 500 meters further on 6 German guns, which had been abandoned by FAR3, pointing at the british camp along with three dead Gunners.

https://portal.dnb.de/bookviewer/view/1031678174#page/22/mode/2up

Charlie

[FROGSMILE]

46 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

I‘m away from home for a few days, but if Templar sticks around I‘ll have a look if I can find anything when I get home. It has to be realised, as I am sure do, what Templar is interested in is a small occurrence in a big war, the German OH passes over the bivouac incident in a sentence (Vol 3, p 200), „Der Weltkampf um Ehre und Recht“ (a semi OH) is similarly brief. The histories of DR17, DR18 and FAR3 are going to be the best sources for information as they were directly involved. None of the histories are available online and I haven‘t seen them. As is usual regimental histories vary in quality ranging from brief transcriptions from the War Diary through factual descriptions of actions to embellished accounts that are more fitting to „Boy‘s Own“.

What I did find in the history of DR19 which passed through the area on the 2nd September is a description of what they found on the battlefield - about 100 dead horses, many dead English and wrecked guns and limbers, 500 meters further on 6 German guns, which had been abandoned by FAR3, pointing at the british camp along with three dead Gunners.

https://portal.dnb.de/bookviewer/view/1031678174#page/22/mode/2up

Charlie

You make excellent points Charlie.  I was really just thinking of a simple narrative by an individual describing his scouting duty, even if on just one occasion, as a template that might guide a writer and nothing more than that really.  More like a private journal I suppose. 

Edited 8 October , 2023 by FROGSMILE