Flight Lieutenant Charlie Attrill, RN - 'Inventor' of aircraft torpedo dropping gear

[NigelS]

From an Isle of Wight news site:

Flight Lieutenant Charlie Attrill MBE – who invented the torpedo-dropping gear – was cremated at Whippingham on 29th September 1962.

Only one other possible mention for this man on here: 186 squadron 1919

Clearly throughout his service career he was heavily involved with torpedoes, but I couldn't help wondering if  it might be that he  was 'involved' with the development of the dropping-gear rather than its invention with the latter claim coming about through an overstatement made, as they often are, in an obituary.   It would be great to be proved wrong - any further information known on the development of aircraft dropped torpedoes?

NigelS

[The Treasurer]

The gear must have been available in some form very early in the war. The original orders for the raid that resulted in the First Battle of Heligoland (dated 25th August 1914) included a carrier launched seaplane attack on a cruiser reported as stationed in the Ems estuary. One of the three seaplanes was to carry a torpedo.

 

This element of the raid was cancelled when submarine D.2 was unable to confirm definitively that the cruiser was not Dutch in a reconnaissance just prior to the raid.

[michaeldr]

The development of torpedo carrying aircraft pre-dated the war by some months,
however the progress was steady rather than speedy;

see Documents Relating to the Naval Air Service Vol.1 1908-1918, the Navy Records Society 1969

Extracts from the First Annual Report of the Air Committee on the progress of the Royal Flying Corps, dated 7 June 1913
(CID 179B. CAB 38/24/21)
signed by Commander Barry Domvile, Secretary, Air Committee
Item 65 mentions
'The question of launching torpedoes from hydro-aeroplanes is also being considered.'
. . . . . . . . . 
Extracts from Minutes of CID Sub-Committee on 'Allotment and Location of Seaplane and Aeroplane Stations' held on 25 June 1914
(CID. SAS-2. ADM 1/8621)
refers to “... work has been practised for some time from a 'mock-up' machine , …
It can therefore be be said that we are approaching a stage where it will be possible to employ a decisive weapon in aircraft for the attack of ships at sea. ...”
. . . . . . . . . 
Extracts from Minutes of a Conference held in the Admiralty on 3 April 1915
(ADM 1/8497)
“The development of the torpedo-carrying seaplane must also be pressed on with, so that if possible a decisive blow may be aimed at some of the enemy's capital ships with this weapon, either in a fleet action, or in his harbours.”
. . . . . . . . .
Report by Squadron Commander C. L'E. Malone, Commanding HMS Ben-My-Chree to the Director of the Air Department on the First Successful air torpedo attack, dated 14 August 1915
(Air 1/665)
mentioned are the pilot, Flight Commander C H K Edmonds, Warrant Officer (2nd Grade) Witt & CPO Whitmore
 

[horatio2]

@michaeldr's contribution is very helpful.

His drafts in the early years of the RNAS give a clue to his place in the hierarchy:

·       24 Sep 1912 to 1 Mar 1914. Seaman Petty Officer (torpedoman) in HMS VERNON.

·       2 Mar 1914 drafted to HMS PEMBROKE III (probably at RNAS Eastchurch). From 8 Nov 1914 to 31 Mar 1915on the books of HMS PRESIDENT II as PO Mech RNAS.

·       1 Apr to 21 May 1915, advanced to CPO 3^rd Grade RNAS, still probably serving at Eastchurch (PRESIDENT II).

·       222 May 1915 to 8 April 1916. Serving in HMS BEN-MY-CHREE. Ian Burns notes in his excellent book on this ship (p.81) “… Edmonds and CPO Attrill, one of BEN-MY-CHREE’s torpedo artificers was transferred back to Britain expressly to work on torpedo development. Efforts concentrated on producing a machine capable of carrying an 18-inch Mark IX torpedo weighing 1,000lbs.”

·       9 Apr 1916 back in UK on the books of PRESIDENT II until 1 Aug 1916 when he was drafted to RNAS Felixstowe. On 17 Jan 1917 he was promoted to Warrant Officer 2^nd Class and remained at Felixstowe for torpedo duties.

·       3 Mar 1917. On its formation he was appointed to No.6 Wing at RNAS Taranto.

Clearly an in-depth torpedo specialist but I agree that his tag as the man “who invented the torpedo-dropping gear” may be somewhat over-stated.

 

 

Edited 30 September , 2023 by horatio2

[The Treasurer]

36 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

The development of torpedo carrying aircraft pre-dated the war by some months,
however the progress was steady rather than speedy;

see Documents Relating to the Naval Air Service Vol.1 1908-1918, the Navy Records Society 1969

Extracts from the First Annual Report of the Air Committee on the progress of the Royal Flying Corps, dated 7 June 1913
(CID 179B. CAB 38/24/21)
signed by Commander Barry Domvile, Secretary, Air Committee
Item 65 mentions
'The question of launching torpedoes from hydro-aeroplanes is also being considered.'
. . . . . . . . . 
Extracts from Minutes of CID Sub-Committee on 'Allotment and Location of Seaplane and Aeroplane Stations' held on 25 June 1914
(CID. SAS-2. ADM 1/8621)
refers to “... work has been practised for some time from a 'mock-up' machine , …
It can therefore be be said that we are approaching a stage where it will be possible to employ a decisive weapon in aircraft for the attack of ships at sea. ...”
. . . . . . . . . 
Extracts from Minutes of a Conference held in the Admiralty on 3 April 1915
(ADM 1/8497)
“The development of the torpedo-carrying seaplane must also be pressed on with, so that if possible a decisive blow may be aimed at some of the enemy's capital ships with this weapon, either in a fleet action, or in his harbours.”
. . . . . . . . .
Report by Squadron Commander C. L'E. Malone, Commanding HMS Ben-My-Chree to the Director of the Air Department on the First Successful air torpedo attack, dated 14 August 1915
(Air 1/665)
mentioned are the pilot, Flight Commander C H K Edmonds, Warrant Officer (2nd Grade) Witt & CPO Whitmore
 

Very helpful @michaeldr. The trials mentioned in June 1914 must have progressed to the point where an attempt at use in combat was deemed feasible by late August 1914. If only murky weather hadn't prevented D,2 from completing her reconnaissance, the first attack might have been made in 1914, although the weather on the day of the action was also rather unsuitable.

[Rockturner]

Nigel,

Attrill's name is not one that I have been able to find readily, even in the Navy Lists. However, it is recorded that the first live torpedo drop occurred on 12 August 1915 in the Dardanelles. Peter Lewis, Squadron Histories, p.173.

Although King's Armament of British Aircraft 1909-1939, p.321 states that the first British seaplane designed specifically for torpedo dropping was the Sopwith Type C built in 1914. It was intended that drawings of this dropping gear would be included in Volume 2 of this work but this was never published, to my knowledge.

However, on 15 June 1914, the Caldeshot air station commanded by Longmore was inspected by Battenberg and Churchill. WSC asked Longmore if torpedo dropping experiments already started by Flt-Lt Hyde-Thomson who designed the quick release catch for the drop gear could be sped up. Longmore said they could if they could retain seaplane Short Type 166 seaplane No.121, which was officially taken over by Caldshot on  23.7.14. Torpedo drop gear was fitted 23-25. 7.14. First British aircraft to successfully launch a torpedo, a Whitehead 14 inch weighing 810 lbs  was on 28 July 1914, although Barnes believes it was on 27 July 1914. So far this had not been achieved with the Sopwith aircraft. Horace Shot modified the float cross bars to enable a torpedo to be fitted to the aircraft. By the way, Barnes also says it was Gordon Bell who made the first drop.

Royal Aircraft Serials, Sturtivant and Page, p.36-37

Shorts Aircraft, Barnes, p.97-98  There is a photo of 121 at Grain taken in 1915 without torpedo on p.96, but you may be able to discern the dropping gear.

Sopwith Aircraft 1912-1920, King, p.67-70.

Hope this helps PM me if you have any questions.

Rockturner

[Jon_B]

As referenced in the OP, this is 186 Squadron at Gosport in 1919. My great-grandfather (Chief Gunner (T) TF Britton, top row third from right), has written on the back 'Sqn Ldr Pulford' and 'S.M. 1 Attril'. Pulford was the squadron commander and is in the centre with the dog under his seat.

I understand S.M.1 was Sergeant Major 1st Class, so the senior warrant officer in the squadron. The man on Pulford's left has a RAF Warrant Officer's cap badge, although also what appears to be a Flying Officer's rank braid on his sleeve. Speculation, but this could be Charlie Attrill.

Jon

 

[Buffnut453]

Fascinating photo.  I think Sqn Ldr Pulford later became AVM Pulford who died in the evacuation of Singapore in February 1942.  The two men certainly have strong facial similarities, particularly the ears and the style of moustache which appears not to have changed in the intervening 22 years. 

Having researched the RAF's operations during the Malayan Campaign, and defence of Burma and Singapore in WW2, Pulford's name is very familiar to me.  Clearly nothing to do with the thread at hand, so I apologize for the diversion.  

[NigelS]

Interesting, it appears that my original doubts about the 'Inventor' claim may be well founded. 

Jon - in the 186 squadron 1919 thread you gave that your Gt. Grandfather spent most of his career in torpedoes so that it seems possible that he and Attrill's, both being RN, paths may have crossed regularly & may explain why Attrill's name, being readily  identifiable by him, is one of those given on the back of the photo.

2 hours ago, Rockturner said:

....However, on 15 June 1914, the Caldeshot air station commanded by Longmore was inspected by Battenberg and Churchill. WSC asked Longmore if torpedo dropping experiments already started by Flt-Lt Hyde-Thomson who designed the quick release catch for the drop gear could be sped up. Longmore said they could if they could retain seaplane Short Type 166 seaplane No.121, which was officially taken over by Caldshot on  23.7.14. Torpedo drop gear was fitted 23-25. 7.14. First British aircraft to successfully launch a torpedo, a Whitehead 14 inch weighing 810 lbs  was on 28 July 1914, although Barnes believes it was on 27 July 1914. So far this had not been achieved with the Sopwith aircraft. Horace Shot modified the float cross bars to enable a torpedo to be fitted to the aircraft. By the way, Barnes also says it was Gordon Bell who made the first drop.

Rockturner

 I can't find any mention of Cadeshot air station, so likely to be Calshot, near Southampton which was established as an RNAS base as early as March 1913 (several of its Great War hangars still survive) although it appears that Attrill wasn't stationed there (?)

If I'm reading previous posts correctly Attrill was stationed at Ben-My-Chree, where the first torpedo attack was launched from,  but had been transferred back to Britain expressly to work on torpedo development. Efforts concentrated on producing a machine capable of carrying an 18-inch Mark IX torpedo weighing 1,000lbs.” prior to the event.

NigelS

[KizmeRD]

6 hours ago, NigelS said:

I can't find any mention of Cadeshot air station, so likely to be Calshot, near Southampton which was established as an RNAS base as early as March 1913 (several of its Great War hangars still survive) although it appears that Attrill wasn't stationed there (?)

If I'm reading previous posts correctly Attrill was stationed at Ben-My-Chree, where the first torpedo attack was launched from,  but had been transferred back to Britain expressly to work on torpedo development. Efforts concentrated on producing a machine capable of carrying an 18-inch Mark IX torpedo weighing 1,000lbs.” prior to the event.

As @Rockturner has previously alluded to, the RNAS took delivery of the Sopwith Special floatplane which was specifically designed to drop a 14 inch torpedo in early July 1914, but it proved unable to take-off carrying the torpedo, so Squadron Commander Arthur Longmore, CO of the Calshot seaplane station which was carrying out the torpedo trials, suggested that one of the Short Folder Tractor biplane seaplanes should be modified for torpedo dropping. Drawings for torpedo gear were produced by Shorts, and the 160hp, Gnome engined, Short S84 Folder seaplane No. 121, flown by Longmore, carried out the first torpedo drop by a British aircraft, with a 14-inch 850lb Whitehead torpedo, on 28 July 1914.

And as @horatio2 has stated, Attrill was most probably posted to RNAS Eastchurch during the 1914 torpedo drop trials, so he was unlikely to have had any direct involvement.

He was however serving in HMS BEN-MY-CHREE from 22 May 1915 to 8 April 1916 and evidently rendered valuable service in relation to the live torpedo drop that scored a hit on the Turkish Sea Transport Div. (Osmanli Seyrisefain Idaresi) steamer CHIOS.

So much so that (as you say) he was transferred back to Britain expressly to continue work on torpedo development. (Based at RNAS FELIXSTOWE).

Although not the inventor of aerial dropping gear, his contribution to its development was clearly deemed sufficient for it to be recognised by the award of an MBE in the 1919 New Year Honours List. (Note that other navies were also active in developing their own air launched torpedoes during the same period too - not least USN, Italian Navy and the Imperial German Navy (with the LTG FD1). 
 

MB

 

Edited 4 October , 2023 by KizmeRD

[Jon_B]

11 hours ago, NigelS said:

Interesting, it appears that my original doubts about the 'Inventor' claim may be well founded. 

Jon - in the 186 squadron 1919 thread you gave that your Gt. Grandfather spent most of his career in torpedoes so that it seems possible that he and Attrill's, both being RN, paths may have crossed regularly & may explain why Attrill's name, being readily  identifiable by him, is one of those given on the back of the photo.

 I can't find any mention of Cadeshot air station, so likely to be Calshot, near Southampton which was established as an RNAS base as early as March 1913 (several of its Great War hangars still survive) although it appears that Attrill wasn't stationed there (?)

If I'm reading previous posts correctly Attrill was stationed at Ben-My-Chree, where the first torpedo attack was launched from,  but had been transferred back to Britain expressly to work on torpedo development. Efforts concentrated on producing a machine capable of carrying an 18-inch Mark IX torpedo weighing 1,000lbs.” prior to the event.

NigelS

Attrill's RNAS and my great-grandfather's RN service suggest that they didn't meet until Gosport, but were both at 186 / 210 Sqn (186 was disbanded and renumbered 210) between 1919 and 1921. Their RN connection would have been reinforced by the fact that they were both from the lower deck. Charles Attrill MBE is on the RAF Lists from 1919 to 1921 as a Flying Officer in 210 Sqn, which was the RAF Torpedo Development Squadron. He remained in the Gosport area after he retired in 1925, and is listed on the Gosport electoral roll in 1929 as Capt, RAF.

[Rockturner]

KismeRD,

My humble  apologies you and Nigel. You are correct of course the suspect seaplane being within the batch S.82 to S.85  with S.82 being 119 it makes No.121 an S.84.

I was a little quick on the draw with that one. Also perhaps  of interest to some members is that each build number could vary from the next as improvements were made to each build number.

Rockturner