Help required identifying crew members of HMT Tenby Castle

[JohnH]

I am trying to put together a list of officers and crew of HMT Tenby Castle in 1918.  So far I have found 11 members of her 14 man crew. I have found two further names that I can't seem to match with RN or RNR service records. Both are unusual surnames, so I have attached links to both naval history.net transcript and original log book in case, names are misspelt.   

They are both recorded on the Tenby Castle log book at HMS Tenby Castle, trawler - British warships of World War 1 (naval-history.net)

Transcript details for 19 January 1918

"H Josslin OS came on board"

Log book:

ADM 53-62582-010_0.jpg (1394×2052) (oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com)

Transcript details for19 September 1918 

"Blacow, Telegraphist, sent on board HMS Zaria on special duty"

Log book:

ADM 53-62583-030_1.jpg (1404×2050) (oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com)

Thanks. 

 

[travers61]

Blacow is Telegraphist Z/2257 RNVR Joseph Blacow, on Tenby Castle from June 1917.  His record is on ancestry.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/34307:62403?tid=&pid=&queryId=b45dd799265d401b991c9033d4428661&_phsrc=Dzf8&_phstart=successSource

Travers

[horatio2]

7 hours ago, travers61 said:

Blacow is Telegraphist Z/2257 RNVR Joseph Blacow

His full Official No. is Mersey Z/2257 (MZ/2257).   There are five other RNVR ratings identified by just Z/2257

Record free from TNA here   -   https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7689567 

[JohnH]

Thanks @travers61 and @horatio2 the service record for Joseph Blacow is very interesting, showing Tenby Castle movements between depot's and his pay list number (14) which seems to correspond with total number of crew. This is the first service record I have seen in this format for Tenby Castle. 

15 hours ago, JohnH said:

Transcript details for 19 January 1918

"H Josslin OS came on board"

Any thoughts on where I can find H Josslin? 

 

[horatio2]

No trace as Ordinary Seaman (OS) under RN and RNVR, nor for RNR. (There is no rating of Ordinary Seaman RNR). I have also tried name JOSSLIN variants: JOCELYN, JOSLIN, JOSLING, JOSSLING and JOSLYN.

The log entry may be in error.

46 minutes ago, JohnH said:

This is the first service record I have seen in this format for Tenby Castle. 

RN and RNVR ledger records in ADM 188 and ADM 337 are broadly similar in format. RNR records in BT164 & 377 were kept on A5 (approx) double sided cards in a quite different format.

[JohnH]

Good evening @horatio2 and @KizmeRD

I have put together a crew list for HM Trawler Tenby Castle at 7 Feb 1918 (date of explosion at Lerwick, Shetland) from a review of her log book and other records I have obtained from TNA.  Can you cast your eye over it to see to if it contains the different ratings you would expect to see on an armed trawler in the Auxiliary Patrol.   

Thank you. 

John 

Shetland

Tenby Castle crew list 7 Feb 1918.pdf

[KizmeRD]

Just my initial thoughts, having reviewed your assumed crew list….

1. It’s unlikely that the Tenby Castle had two ‘Second Hands’ employed at the same time.

2. There would also have been an ‘Engineman’ (or Chief Engineman) in charge of the engines, and probably two firemen/trimmers to assist him. (They wouldn’t have been referred to as ‘Engineers’, at least not officially).

3. I would also have expected that the crew on this trawler would have included an RNVR signalman.

4. Perhaps there might also have been a leading deck hand employed too.

MB

 

Edited 30 August , 2023 by KizmeRD

[JohnH]

23 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

1. It’s unlikely that the Tenby Castle had two ‘Second Hands’ employed at the same time.

Thanks @KizmeRD I think you are spot on.  

James Bowman born 12 March 1886, Pittenween R.N.R Number: SA 2091 served on Tenby Castle from 1 August 1915 to 6 June 1918. BT 377/7/88426.  His service record, does not mention his rating, its blank. I had assumed him to be a Second hand due to the following log book entry. 

The ship’s log book on 6 June 1918 at 6.00pm recorded J Bowman, 2nd hand, was discharged to HMS Gibraltar, Kirkwall, Orkney. ref ADM 53-62583-007. 

The other Second Hand James Bloomfield, left Tenby Castle on 26 February 1918, so it appears James Bowman was promoted to Second Hand at that time. Would Bowman have been a Leading Seamen before his promotion?

Edited 30 August , 2023 by JohnH
additional information

[horatio2]

14 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

It’s unlikely that the Tenby Castle had two ‘Second Hands’ employed at the same time.

I agree this statement as a general rule. However, in this case it is quite clear that both ratings, BLOOMFIELD and NEWMAN, were enrolled into the RNR as Second Hands, as signified by the 'SA' prefix to their RNR Official Numbers, BLOOMFIELD being five months senior to NEWMAN. It is possible that an extra second hand was added to the crew of TENBY CASTLE when she was employed as a Q-Ship, attached to 10th Cruiser Squadron, while on Norwegian Sea blockade patrols in 1915.

13 hours ago, JohnH said:

Second Hand James Bloomfield, left Tenby Castle on 26 February 1918, so it appears James Bowman was promoted to Second Hand at that time. Would Bowman have been a Leading Seamen before his promotion?

No. My previous comment applies. BOWMAN was rated Second Hand from first enrolment in 1915.

Incidentally, Skipper CURTIS was also first enrolled as a Second Hand, later promoted to Skipper while retaining his 'SA' number.

Ser 5. Edward HUNT :  not an RNR "Seamen". His 'DA' prefix shows that he was first enrolled as a Deck Hand (same as CRANG and BROWN. RANSOM's 'SD' prefix shows he was enrolled as a Deck Hand in the Trawler Special Section). HUNT's medals were marked to Deck Hand.

Ser 11, 12 and 13 "unknown" - the references should all be dated 7 Feb 1918.

Ser 15 "JOSSLIN (unknown)". Noted merely as "came on board" (N.B. not "joined") on 19 Jan 1918. I think it unlikely that this unidentified junior rating (RN or RNVR) was embarked as a new crew member (bot could be wrong).

 

Edited 31 August , 2023 by horatio2

[JohnH]

13 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

3. I would also have expected that the crew on this trawler would have included an RNVR signalman.

@KizmeRD

There was a R.N.R. Signalman on board Tenby Castle from 11 October 1915 to 9 July 1917.

John Meldrum Kirkcaldy born 29 November 1891, Crail, Fifeshire. R.N.R Number: A 6622 served as Signalman from 11 October 1915 to 9 July 1917.   TNA Ref  BT 377/7/6634. He gave evidence per Court of Enquiry on 10 April 1917 per ADM 137/3662.

[KizmeRD]

1 hour ago, JohnH said:

@KizmeRD

There was a R.N.R. Signalman on board Tenby Castle from 11 October 1915 to 9 July 1917.

John Meldrum Kirkcaldy born 29 November 1891, Crail, Fifeshire. R.N.R Number: A 6622 served as Signalman from 11 October 1915 to 9 July 1917.   TNA Ref  BT 377/7/6634. He gave evidence per Court of Enquiry on 10 April 1917 per ADM 137/3662.

??? Having taken a look at BT 377/7/6634 in TNA, there’s no evidence that this rating was ever a signalman (it would be highly unusual to find an RNR employed in that role at the time). His record indicates that he was a seaman (= deckhand in the trawler section), and there wasn’t any direct link to Tenby Castle that I could see. Perhaps we should be looking for another rating with similar name?

MB

[JohnH]

10 minutes ago, KizmeRD said:

??? Having taken a look at BT 377/7/6634 in TNA, there’s no evidence that this rating was ever a signalman (it would be highly unusual to find an RNR employed in that role at the time). His record indicates that he was a seaman (= deckhand in the trawler section), and there wasn’t any direct link to Tenby Castle that I could see. Perhaps we should be looking for another rating with similar name?

MB

Reference to Kirkcaldy Signalman RNR exercising at signals on HMS Brilliant on 1 February 1916 in ship's log at 

HMS Tenby Castle, trawler - British warships of World War 1 (naval-history.net)

ADM 53-62579-002_1.jpg (1385×2082) (oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com)

[KizmeRD]

Indeed there is a ref. to a Signalman Kirkcaldy in the ship’s logbook - but we can’t simply assume that its John Meldrum Kirkcaldy (without having anything to support that assertion). Likely more than one naval rating had same or similar surname during WW1 period..

MB

[horatio2]

 A check of RNR Medal Roll reveals  KIRKALDIE (1 x PO Smn), KIRKCALDY (2 x DH + 1 x PO Smn (John Meldrum 6622.A) and KIRKALDY (1 x Trimmer). Only 6622.A has a TENBY CASTLE notation in his RNR record. His record is hard to read but TENBY CASTLE in there so I think he must be the target. Nor can I discern any entries for signal qualification and for his promotion to Leading Seaman and Petty Officer in either his 6622.A or his later 6073.B records.

RNR Signal Boys (2,500+ boys with SB prefix) have only one KIRKLAND hit.

PS  "Signalman John Kirkaldy joined ship" 8 Oct 1915.

Edited 31 August , 2023 by horatio2

[JohnH]

15 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

PS  "Signalman John Kirkaldy joined ship" 8 Oct 1915.

Thanks @horatio2 that is very helpful.

the handwritten log book on 8 Oct 1915, looks to be Kirkcaldy. 

ADM 53-62577-016_0.jpg (1387×2038) (oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com)

 

[KizmeRD]

I think there must have been a transcription error with the ship’s logbook, as Kirkaldy 6622A was never a signalman - he was only ever a seaman branch rating, throughout his entire naval career (and a few hours signal training spent on Brilliant wouldn’t have changed that).

MB

[horatio2]

I agree with @KizmeRD that there is an error in KIRKCALDY's description in all three log entries. They were probably made by someone who did not have a correct understanding of RNR ratings and qualifications. It is possible that this rating had some familiarity with flag hoists and semephore signalling (not unusual with seamen) but that did not make him a "Signalman RNR" from the day of his first joining in October 1915.

[JohnH]

On 27/08/2023 at 22:55, travers61 said:

Blacow is Telegraphist Z/2257 RNVR Joseph Blacow, on Tenby Castle from June 1917.  His record is on ancestry.

Telegraphist RNVR Joseph Blacow, Mersey Z/2257 is recorded with pay list number (14) whilst serving on Tenby Castle on the books of HMS Brilliant at Lerwick, Shetland.  Would this pay list number contain officers such as a Lieutenant (Temporary) R.N.R. The reason I ask, is that I have a total crew list for the Tenby Castle at this time of 15 which includes Walter John Hall Temporary Lieutenant R.N.R.

[horatio2]

I would be very reluctant to link Pay List numbers with an assumption that they give a firm indication of the Scheme of Complement e.g. "BLACOW was number 14 on the Pay List so there must be 14+ on the complement." No such conclusion can be drawn.

Complete Pay Lists have not survived so we have no idea how numbers were allocated or if they were re-used when men left and joined. Pay list details are noted in RN (ADM 188) and RNVR (ADM 337) ratings' records but no such detail exists in the records of all officers and RNR ratings. Your research has identified a number of TENBY CASTLE's company but only one of them (BLACOW) has a recorded Pay Number.

Even for BLACOW, his Pay List Numbers on the books of GIBRALTAR (39), LORD LANSDOWNE (23), GIBRALTAR (11) and ZARIA (8) were for service in TENBY CASTLE.. These Pay Numbersclearly are not indicative of the complement.

[JohnH]

Thanks @horatio2 that is very helpful.

 

[horatio2]

Deturning to the accident in February 1918, the log records "Torpedo Gunner W King, two assistants and Leading Seaman Brown killed". This means that, Seaman JOHNSTON and Wireman GREEN were the two "assistants" (although only one "assistant" is noted as embarking at 0940). The drafting records of both these ratings (in clear contrast to that of LS BROWN and the other Shetland rating, HENDERSON) do do not include TENBY CASTLE, so I think we should draw the conclusion that both men were part of the Base Staff.

Seaman JOHNSTON should not, in my opinion, be included on your Crew List as he was only ever drafted to (and discharged dead from) the Lerwick Base.

[JohnH]

55 minutes ago, horatio2 said:

Seaman JOHNSTON should not, in my opinion, be included on your Crew List as he was only ever drafted to (and discharged dead from) the Lerwick Base.

Thanks @horatio2 for this clarification. I was in two minds about JOHNSTON too and agree with your comment.  Given his age 42 on enrolment in 1914 (D.O.B. 1 Oct.1872) he was probably to old to serve anywhere other than at the Lerwick Naval Base.  Here is his photo from Shetland Roll Of Honour. 

The other Shetland rating HENDERSON is my grandfather.

I will need your help on a more TENBY CASTLE research shortly - re officers.

Edited 2 September , 2023 by JohnH
add DOB update age

[KizmeRD]

Likely to be difficult to reveal more information than we currently have without a visit to Kew, and a read of ADM137/944 - Auxiliary Patrol Weekly Reports, Areas II & III (Orkneys and Shetlands) January-June 1918.

MB

[JohnH]

Good evening @horatio2 and @KizmeRD

I’m trying to figure out the R.N.R. officers/Skippers who commanded the TENBY CASTLE during the period my grandfather served on her, from June 1916 to August 1918. 

I have found these R.N.R. officers/Skippers, but unsure on some dates.

Walter John HALL born 9 October 1881 Gillingham, Dorset. He was appointed Lieutenant (Temporary) R.N.R. on 6 February 1916 and served on HM Trawler Tenby Castle from 20 May 1916 ?  to 16 Dec. 1917 ?  TNA ref: ADM 240/42/710

• HALL in charge of the Tenby Castle on 14 May 1917 per Court of Enquiry on 17 May 1917 per HD1579-1917.
• HALL in charge of the Tenby Castle on 6 September 1917 per Court of Enquiry on 15 September 1917 per HD/1917/2668.
• HALL is listed as Tenby Castle Commanding Officer on list of 10th Cruiser Squadron Trawlers on 6 Dec. 1917. (per attached) Tenby Castle was one of 5 armed trawlers based at Oban who were transferred to Lerwick following reorganisation of 10th Cruiser Squadron

I think HALL was replaced by Skipper Sidney Charles CURTIS R.N.R Number: SA 884, when Tenby Castle was transferred from Naval Base Oban (LORD LANSDOWNE) to Lerwick (BRILLIANT) on 16/17 Dec 1917.

James Henry ARNOLD D.S.C., born 18 January 1890 Sunderland, Durham R.N.R. service no. 1544. ARNOLD was appointed a Temp. Sub-Lieutenant on 16 November 1916 and promoted to Acting Temporary Lieutenant on 18 May 1917 and then Lieutenant (Temporary) on 16 November 1918. TNA ref: ADM 340/3/43 and ADM 240/46/13

• ARNOLD served on Tenby Castle from 25 December 1916 to 13 October 1917 (appears to be some overlap with Walter John HALL ?)

• Sub-Lieutenant ARNOLD was in command of Tenby Castle during action with submarine on 6 April 1917. TNA ref: ADM 137 3662

[KizmeRD]

John, as can be seen from the attachment to your last post, by the time your GF joined Tenby Castle, all armed trawlers attached to the 10th Cruiser Squadron had RNR officers appointed in command. That’s not to say that they didn’t also have an RNR(T) Skipper onboard too, but due to the role of the trawlers in supporting the AMC’s with the duty of intercepting and boarding neutral shipping in inshore waters, it was deemed appropriate to have someone in charge who was accustomed to dealing with foreign Master Mariners in the Mercantile Marine. 

Then, following the withdrawal of the 10th CS AMC’s at the start of 1918, the role of Tenby Castle altered somewhat, and operational control passed to the Auxiliary Patrol (Area II, based at Lerwick). Also, since the re-purposed Tenby Castle wasn’t a designated AP leader, it was sufficient for command to revert to a RNR(T) Skipper. There would probably also have been some degree of re-fitting of the vessel with newer ASW equipment and providing training to the crew in how to use it. This appears to be what was going on at Alexander Quay (HMS Ambitious - the AP base) at the beginning of February.

Incidentally, Skipper Curtis didn’t emerge wholly unscathed by the explosion - he was subsequently discharged medically unfit 19 April, 1918.

MB

 

Edited 3 September , 2023 by KizmeRD