Identification of regiment please

[charlie962]

27 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

wonderful too if someone should recognise the officer (

There must be a list somewhere in Canadian records but when I was looking at Newspapers the only name for 2nd Brit Col Regt that came up was of a Lieut GS Carstairs. In Aug 1915 he was in hospital at Millbank. Cannot recall if I saw an earlier ref.

But there's one name to check out. 

 

Ps..the detail in that enlargement of the capbadge in the op photo was quite remarkable and was the key to a problem that would otherwise have probably remained unsolved

Edited 24 August , 2023 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

There must be a list somewhere in Canadian records but when I was looking at Newspapers the only name for 2nd Brit Col Regt that came up was of a Lieut GS Carstairs. In Aug 1915 he was in hospital at Millbank. Cannot recall if I saw an earlier ref.

But there's one name to check out.

Thanks Charlie.  The date seems right and it might explain a portrait photo ostensibly taken in Britain, if that is the origin of the photo.  Millbank was an RAMC hub in terms of its location near central London.  I wonder if he can be tracked down by one of the forum’s fantastic genealogists.  A bit of a tall challenge for @PRC and others given that it will rely on possibly unfamiliar sources of records in Canada rather than well trodden paths in the UK.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

 Ps..the detail in that enlargement of the capbadge in the op photo was quite remarkable and was the key to a problem that would otherwise have probably remained unsolved

It just goes to show the superb resolution of those old glass plate photographs that are still quite stunning in the detail that they give even over a hundred years later. 

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Lieutenant Graham Stewart Carstairs was born in London, England on the 11th October 1891.

Serving with the Canadian Militia when he attested on December 4th 1914 at Victoria, British Columbia, he had previously served 1 year in the 4th Devons and 2 years in the O.T.C.

He joined the 30th Battalion, being commissioned in February 1915. He was transferred to the 16th (Reserve) Battalion on going overseas in early 1915. He was posted to the 5th Battalion in France in May 1916. He was admitted to a Field Ambulance \ Casualty Clearing Station and Reset Station on the 9th June 1916 suffering with Shell Shock. He rejoined his unit on the 6th July 1916 but two days later again reported sick. Having been previously treated for Myalgia in the UK, he now had "Rheumatism, Otits Media, Pyrexia and Gonnorhea" !

He was medically evacuated to the UK and admitted to "50 Weymouth Street" on the 20th July 1916, (on some of the Medical reports it is referred to as Miss Pollocks Hospital, although at times the information is contradictory).

He then seems to have been bounced around - placed on the General List, moved to a Reserve Regiment and then the Pay Office which shows him serving with "Estates IV" and appears to be in the UK. He then found a role as a Staff Officer in September 1916, an Orderly Officer with a Training Battalion in November 1916,and various Reserve Battalions from March 1917 onwards.

He was struck off strength on the 2nd July 1918 and transferred to the Indian Army.

Tht's just a summary based on a skim read. His Canadian Service records can be seen here https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=B1537-S013

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, PRC said:

Lieutenant Graham Stewart Carstairs was born in London, England on the 11th October 1891.

Serving with the Canadian Militia when he attested on December 4th 1914 at Victoria, British Columbia, he had previously served 1 year in the 4th Devons and 2 years in the O.T.C.

He joined the 30th Battalion, being commissioned in February 1915. He was transferred to the 16th (Reserve) Battalion on going overseas in early 1915. He was posted to the 5th Battalion in France in May 1916. He was admitted to a Field Ambulance \ Casualty Clearing Station and Reset Station on the 9th June 1916 suffering with Shell Shock. He rejoined his unit on the 6th July 1916 but two days later again reported sick. Having been previously treated for Myalgia in the UK, he now had "Rheumatism, Otits Media, Pyrexia and Gonnorhea" !

He was medically evacuated to the UK and admitted to "50 Weymouth Street" on the 20th July 1916, (on some of the Medical reports it is referred to as Miss Pollocks Hospital, although at times the information is contradictory).

He then seems to have been bounced around - placed on the General List, moved to a Reserve Regiment and then the Pay Office which shows him serving with "Estates IV" and appears to be in the UK. He then found a role as a Staff Officer in September 1916, an Orderly Officer with a Training Battalion in November 1916,and various Reserve Battalions from March 1917 onwards.

He was struck off strength on the 2nd July 1918 and transferred to the Indian Army.

Tht's just a summary based on a skim read. His Canadian Service records can be seen here https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?op=pdf&app=CEF&id=B1537-S013

Cheers,
Peter

Fantastic effort Peter, and remarkable detail thanks in part I suppose to the more complete Canadian Records.  He certainly seems like a strong contender and it places him in the sort of environment where he might readily have had a portrait photo taken in Britain.  The critical question is whether he joined the unit early enough for it to still have been wearing unapproved 2nd British Columbia insignia, rather than the 30th insignia that followed it.  The clincher of course would be a photo that can be matched.  Surely there must be a group image somewhere.

NB.  On a HQ ARRC staff ride around the Somme in 2009 I was proudly told by a Canadian officer that the CEF element had by some considerable margin the highest rates of STD in the entire BEF.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

GS Carstairs.

Perhaps a photo in an ancestry tree, although much better to have a group photo since Carstairs is probably only one of a number of potentials.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/?name=Graham+stewart_Carstairs

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

GS Carstairs.

Perhaps a photo in an ancestry tree, although much better to have a group photo since Carstairs is probably only one of a number of potentials.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/?name=Graham+stewart_Carstairs

Does anyone have membership who can just post a photo of his face?

[Allan1892]

The person that was trying to find out the regiment from the ap badge came up with two names, both brothers. This was my last reply to him / her :-

 

'As we now know that the photograph is of an officer in the 2nd Regiment of the 30th Battalion, I have read through the service records of both Philip Joseph Locke and his brother Victor Franklin and find that when Philip sailed on the 3 October 1914, he was with the 12th Battalion (there is no mention in his file of ever being in the 30th Battalion).

When Victor sailed on the 23 February 1915, he was with the 30th Battalion -- I believe that the photograph that you have is that of Victor Franklin Locke, a Lieutenant in the 30th Battalion.

Images courtesy of the Canadian Archives'

[RNCVR]

  I don’t know much about Canadian archives ( @RNCVR will know) 

The LAC (Library & Archives of Canada) has the full CEF Service Files available online & free to download, however no way (that I know of) to search an unidentified Officer such as the Officer represented in this RPPC .

[RNCVR]

This might be him -

Name:

• LOCKE, VICTOR FRANKLIN

Rank:

LT

Date of Birth:

• 1885-01-08

Reference:

RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 5702 - 56

 

Item Number:

535025

Record Group:

Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF)

Digitized service file - PDF format:

• B5702-S056

- Library and Archives Canada (bac-lac.gc.ca)

Victor Franlin LOCKE died - 28 Oct 1958.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

The person that was trying to find out the regiment from the ap badge came up with two names, both brothers. This was my last reply to him / her :-

 

'As we now know that the photograph is of an officer in the 2nd Regiment of the 30th Battalion, I have read through the service records of both Philip Joseph Locke and his brother Victor Franklin and find that when Philip sailed on the 3 October 1914, he was with the 12th Battalion (there is no mention in his file of ever being in the 30th Battalion).

When Victor sailed on the 23 February 1915, he was with the 30th Battalion -- I believe that the photograph that you have is that of Victor Franklin Locke, a Lieutenant in the 30th Battalion.

Images courtesy of the Canadian Archives'

It seems entirely plausible that it could be Locke, but whoever it is we need to match another photograph with the one you have.

I understand why there’s confusion with nomenclature, but it’s also important to understand the unit titles if we are to avoid misunderstanding.  It’s a contradiction in terms to have a regiment of a battalion.

From what I can gather there was a 1st British Columbia Regiment and a 2nd British Columbia Regiment, both of which served in France and Flanders.  Each of these units had maple leafs as their badge superimposed with province title and a numeral. 

They were apparently followed to Britain by feeder battalions that were to maintain drafts of reinforcements.  The 1st BC were fed initially by the 7th Infantry Battalion and the 2nd BC were fed by the 30th Infantry Battalion.  Each of these battalions, 7th and 30th organised their own badges.  The first badge sought by the eventual 30th had still the number 2 linking them with the parent unit, but it was turned down and subsequently modified to have an imperial crown instead of a crest and the numerals 30 instead of 2.

This tinkering with badges seems to have been rather academic, as the attrition moved quickly and casualty rates soon outran events, so that within eighteen months both, 7th and 30th, were absorbed by entirely differently numbered ‘Reserve Battalions’, rather similar to the Training Reserve in Britain.

11 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

This might be him -

 

Name:

• LOCKE, VICTOR FRANKLIN

Rank:

LT

 

Date of Birth:

• 1885-01-08

 

 

 

 

Reference:

RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 5702 - 56

 

Item Number:

535025

Record Group:

Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF)

 

 

Digitized service file - PDF format:

• B5702-S056

- Library and Archives Canada (bac-lac.gc.ca)

Thanks Bryan, it’s a positive sign that you’ve reached the same conclusion as Allan, we now need a photograph to compare and match.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

17 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

have is that of Victor Franklin Locke, a Lieutenant in the 30th Battalion

Try contacting some of these Ancestry tree owners? 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/?name=Victor+franklin_Locke

[Allan1892]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

but whoever it is we need to match another photograph with the one you have.

Have been looking for the last couple of days without success.

10 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Try contacting some of these Ancestry tree owners?

No images with the trees on Ancestry. I have sent a PM to the person with the most info about VFL

[RNCVR]

33 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It seems entirely plausible that it could be Locke, but whoever it is we need to match another photograph with the one you have.

 

Thanks Bryan, it’s a positive sign that you’ve reached the same conclusion as Allan, we now need a photograph to compare and match.

Agree!

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Have been looking for the last couple of days without success.

No images with the trees on Ancestry. I have sent a PM to the person with the most info about VFL

I guess it was always a long shot and in truth I’d hoped that there’d be an early photo of the officers gathered in Canada prior to leaving for Britain.  Another possibility I thought was a school photo if he had attended one of the proprietary colleges where cricket, football and rowing photos were organised ritually.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

It seems entirely plausible that it could be Locke, but whoever it is we need to match another photograph with the one you have.

It appears that both brothers had prior military service in the UK.

Victor Franklin Locke was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant with the 2nd Volunteer Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment on 24 June 1905.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27820/page/5067

Both he and his brother, Philip, were then appointed as officers to the 7th Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment on 1 April 1908, which is presumably the date of the formation of the Territorial Force.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28171/page/6228

Perhaps a request to the regimental archives of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment or its successor might turn up a photo.

Edited to add that in the 1901 England and Wales census he appears to have been a student living away from home in Chesham Road, Berkhamstead. Can anybody suggest a public school that might be associated with this address/location.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS44-4JP

Edited 24 August , 2023 by Tawhiri

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, Tawhiri said:

It appears that both brothers had prior military service in the UK.

Victor Franklin Locke was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant with the 2nd Volunteer Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment on 24 June 1905.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27820/page/5067

Both he and his brother, Philip, were then appointed as officers to the 7th Battalion of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment on 1 April 1908, which is presumably the date of the formation of the Territorial Force.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28171/page/6228

Perhaps a request to the regimental archives might turn up a photo.

Yes that’s a good thought Tawhiri.  I don’t know if things have changed now, but certainly until the government withdrew the majority of the funds it provided to the MOD to support military museums (Margaret Thatcher era) the regular regimental museums had very little to do with the Territorial archives, if at all.  Instead, and reflecting the old funding links, County museums and county archives offices held all records for auxiliary units, both Militia and Volunteers.  In more recent years some museums have merged their collections, or token parts of them with local county, or even regional museums in some cases**.  However, as far as I know the Counties still hold any surviving records and old photos for those auxiliary units.  I’m not sure where that for Warwickshire is.

**especially following multiple and successive mergers that left individual regimental collections too unwieldy to display with any coherence.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

40 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Another possibility I thought was a school photo if he had attended one of the proprietary colleges where cricket, football and rowing photos were organised ritually.

The Canadian Service Records for Victor Franklin Locke shows as born Leamington, England on the 8th January 1885.

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 16 year old Victor Locke, born Leamington, Warwickshire, who was recorded as a Boarding Student at Chesham Road, Great Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire. He's on page 33 and it takes me a long, long time to scroll back to the cover sheet on Genes Reunited.

According to the website of the Berkhamsted School, that is the location of two of their residential houses.https://www.berkhamsted.com/sixth-form/boarding/

I'm going round and round in circles on the school website - there is a reference to them having put up stories about old boys of the school who served in the Great War on Twitter but I don't have an account https://www.berkhamsted.com/remembrance-wartime-fallen/

An online archives appear to be here http://berkhamsted-heritage.daisy.websds.net/
However a log in is required.

I'm not finding copies of the School Magazine, The Old Berkhamstedian, on Archive Org, just some recent ones on issuu com. According to the Lives of the Great War website there appears to have been regular updates in the Magazine such as https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/community/8801

Hope that helps,
Peter

 

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, PRC said:

The Canadian Service Records for Victor Franklin Locke shows as born Leamington, England on the 8th January 1885.

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales there is a 16 year old Victor Locke, born Leamington, Warwickshire, who was recorded as a Boarding Student at Chesham Road, Great Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire. He's on page 33 and it takes me a long, long time to scroll back to the cover sheet on Genes Reunited.

According to the website of the Berkhamsted School, that is the location of two of their residential houses.https://www.berkhamsted.com/sixth-form/boarding/

I'm going round and round in circles on the school website - there is a reference to them having put up stories about old boys of the school who served in the Great War on Twitter but I don't have an account https://www.berkhamsted.com/remembrance-wartime-fallen/

An online archives appear to be here http://berkhamsted-heritage.daisy.websds.net/
However a log in is required.

I'm not finding copies of the School Magazine, The Old Berkhamstedian, on Archive Org, just some recent ones on issuu com. According to the Lives of the Great War website there appears to have been regular updates in the Magazine such as https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/community/8801

Hope that helps,
Peter

 

Absolutely brilliant work by you Peter, as per usual.  Not for me to pursue, but hopefully others with more online resources and skin in the game might wish to do so.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Looking still at Findmypast newspapers, a couple of articles on Victor Locke.

1. 1911

2. Aug 1915

It may be my imagination or a poor scan but does the op's photo show a problem with the right eye? 

But where do 16th Canadian Scottish fit in?

Edited 24 August , 2023 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

45 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Looking still at Findmypast newspapers, a couple of articles on Victor Locke.

1. 1911

2. Aug 1915

It may be my imagination or a poor scan but does the op's photo show a problem with the right eye? 

But where do 16th Canadian Scottish fit in?

Given the mention of his movements, previous wounding, sickness, etc. he might well have been moved to the 16th after being declared fit on an earlier occasion.