Identification of regiment please

[Allan1892]

Can anyone identify the regiment of this officer please?

[FROGSMILE]

23 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

Can anyone identify the regiment of this officer please?

A very rare photo I should think.  The 30th Infantry Battalion Canadian Expeditionary Force and recruited from British Columbia.  The cap badge was circular and the collar badges oval, and both were only worn whilst in the U.K.  The unit was initially retitled as Reserve without change of number or insignia, but then subsequently absorbed by the 1st Reserve Battalion, which fed drafts of reinforcements to Canadian Infantry Base Depots in France.

”The 30th Battalion was authorized on 27 October 1914 and embarked for Britain on 23 February 1915. It was redesignated as the 30th Reserve Battalion, CEF on 18 April 1915 to provide reinforcements for the Canadian Corps in the field.”

“On 4 January 1917 its personnel were absorbed by the 1st Reserve Battalion, CEF. The battalion was subsequently disbanded on 1 September 1917.  The 30th Battalion recruited in British Columbia and was mobilized at Victoria.”

 

 

Edited 22 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

@FROGSMILE -- many, many thanks -- I had a feeling that you would come up with the answer

[Allan1892]

@FROGSMILE -- I nave been given a close up of the badge -- it looks like 2 Battalion but I can't find confirmation. Can you help please?

[FROGSMILE]

22 hours ago, Allan1892 said:

@FROGSMILE -- I nave been given a close up of the badge -- it looks like 2 Battalion but I can't find confirmation. Can you help please?

It’s a super close up and I agree it shows the number 2, has an ‘Imperial Crest’ instead of just Imperial Crown and has only one horizontal title bar.  When first examining your photo I did think I could see an imperial crest at first, but dismissed the notion as a figment in my eyesight when the only match I could find was the 30th Infantry, which in most of the other aspects seemed to match.

 I always enjoy seeing your photos Allan and you’ve certainly come up with a very real mystery this time.  My only written reference is COX Military Badges of the British Empire 1914-1918, published in 1982.  It was a ground breaking and monumental work in its time and one of the most expensive books I ever bought.  In the Canadian section it shows the badges of 248 infantry battalions of the CEF.  The 2nd Infantry Battalion is the Eastern Ontario Regiment and has a very different badge based on the Maple leaf with crown and number superimposed and a title scroll beneath.

The especially intriguing aspect of your two photos is that the design is very close to the 30th Infantry despite the differences we now see and none of the other numbered battalions shown in the reference even come close.  I’m not positive what it says on the horizontal bar apparent on the badge in your close up, but that will be key, along with the abbreviated’REGT’ and the Imperial crest, which latter was generally privileged insignia and only sparingly permitted (for example it was awarded in the British infantry to the KOSB and QORWK**).  A few Canadian infantry battalions modified their badge slightly to create as many as three variants, but it wasn’t something that every single unit did so I’m not sure what the answer might be in this case.

In the years since 1982 of course much more has been learned, not least via collectors communicating on the internet, so I’m sure that the answer will be out there somewhere.  There’s also the British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum that has a Canadian section and with your permission I could copy your photos there and seek members opinions?  I will also check the other Dominions and Commonwealths to double check it’s not other than Canadian.

**although it had also been the badge permitted to represent the British Army as a whole until two, crossed Crusader swords were added in the early 1920s.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

30 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

There’s also the British and Commonwealth Military Badge Forum that has a Canadian section and with your permission I could copy your photos there and seek members opinions?  I will also check the other Dominions and Commonwealths to double checks it’s not other than Canadian.

Many thanks for replying to another of my queries, it's really appreciated. Yes, by all means use the images to see if anyone can come up with the answer.

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Many thanks for replying to another of my queries, it's really appreciated. Yes, by all means use the images to see if anyone can come up with the answer.

In hindsight the “REGT” abbreviation is very significant, as all the Canadian units I referred to were battalion’s and not regiment’s.  I have a feeling the answer might now lie with another part of the then Empire.  I will shift direction and focus…

Afternote:  can anyone else see or venture a guess as to what it says on the horizontal title bar in the close up posted above by Allan?  Is it British Columbia or something else?

Edited 23 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

26 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

Many thanks for replying to another of my queries, it's really appreciated. Yes, by all means use the images to see if anyone can come up with the answer.

Can you try to get a similar close up of the collar badges?  Every scrap of information will help.

[Allan1892]

 

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Can you try to get a similar close up of the collar badges?  Every scrap of information will help.

I have asked the person who I am trying to help, I'll see what comes back.

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

 

I have asked the person who I am trying to help, I'll see what comes back.

Thank you.  It’s a real mystery, as I cannot find it in the other Dominions regimental insignia either.  I’m wondering if it might be a unit (Volunteer Regiment) of the Volunteer Force formed from the Volunteer Training Corps near to the end of the war.  Many of the units had discrete and unique badges.  Deciphering the horizontal title scroll will be conclusive I think.

Edited 23 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Rockford]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Afternote:  can anyone else see or venture a guess as to what it says on the horizontal title bar in the close up posted above by Allan?  Is it British Columbia or something else?

Hello,

Although it's not clear, from the way the shadows are highlighting parts of the letters, I think it is British Columbia too.

Best wishes

Brian

[Allan1892]

I thought that I was getting close when I came across the 2nd Regiment, Canadian Mounted Rifles, CEF but the only cap badge that I can find is nowhere near the one in the photograph that I posted.

[FROGSMILE]

34 minutes ago, Rockford said:

Hello,

Although it's not clear, from the way the shadows are highlighting parts of the letters, I think it is British Columbia too.

Best wishes

Brian

Thank you Brian, I appreciate your help.

15 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

I thought that I was getting close when I came across the 2nd Regiment, Canadian Mounted Rifles, CEF but the only cap badge that I can find is nowhere near the one in the photograph that I posted.

Thanks Allan, it’s a real conundrum and I cannot find a “2nd Regiment” anywhere that fits as yet.

[charlie962]

I think BC is pretty good 

There is a ref in Feb 1915 newspapers to the 30th Battalion, 2nd British Columbia Regiment (football match v Folkestone)but I cannot find a badge!

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

I think BC is pretty good 

There is a ref in Feb 1915 newspapers to the 30th Battalion, 2nd British Columbia Regiment (football match v Folkestone)but I cannot find a badge!

That’s the first real clue, charlie, as there was a British Columbia (BC) Regiment that appears to be the oldest (so perhaps sub titled 1st), which applied in the late 1890s to become a rifle unit.  Permission was granted and they subsequently adopted a crest superimposed with bugle.  The 1st BC reinforcements appear to have been numbered as the 7th Infantry Battalion CEF on arrival in Britain, and the 2nd BC reinforcements numbered as the 30th Infantry Battalion, as mentioned earlier.  It seems possible that there was an earlier badge for the unit numbered 30th and that that is what’s seen in the photo, although we’re far from confirming that.

Edited 23 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

Gloucestershire Echo Aug 1915 courtesy Findmypast newspapers

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Gloucestershire Echo Aug 1915 courtesy Findmypast newspapers

That certainly seems to possibly be the badge, especially as it specifically mentions the inscription.  The more generic badge I posted above does not have the same title scroll, or the word regiment (‘REGT’).  I imagine only a few would have been made with the 2 and so it’s understandable that he who lost it sought it’s return.  

Perhaps @regimentalrogue might be able to identify the mystery badge, or know someone who can?

Edited 23 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[mmm45]

Part 12 CEF badges 27 - 35.pdf (canadiansoldiers.com)

 

Prototype badge for 2nd BC Regiment it was withdrawn in 1916

scroll down to after 30th CEF

Ady

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, mmm45 said:

Part 12 CEF badges 27 - 35.pdf (canadiansoldiers.com)

 

Prototype badge for 2nd BC Regiment it was withdrawn in 1916

scroll down to after 30th CEF

Ady

Thank you Ady, it’s good to get the answer.  The subject photo must be extraordinarily rare I should think.  Perhaps Allan would be generous enough to provide a copy for the Canadian archives.  I wonder who the officer was and whether he survived.

Thanks also to charlie962, who made the breakthrough by finding the clue that put us on the right road to solving this erstwhile mystery.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

@mmm45 @FROGSMILE@charlie962

Thank you all for your assistance in this. Late yesterday afternoon, I searched the internet for about 1 hour and came across a really good site in Calgary, Alberta ( https://www.arcticmedals.com/ ) -- after looking at dozens and dozens of WW1 cap badges and not finding it, I emailed the company and by 7.00 / 7.15 last evening they kindly replied:-

'Hi there Allan,

It's an "unapproved" Officer's Badge for the 30th Battalion, it's in "A source of Pride" on pg 8.

Lots of CEF Badges didn't get officially approved and are hence quite scarce with an endless amount of variations..

Best wishes,

Mike McMahon'

Unfortunately 'A Source of Pride' by Joseph Harris Harper is out of print but I think I will search for a second hand copy.

[Allan1892]

@mmm45

Ady, Thank you for posting the answer and link to KN on the other forum

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

@mmm45 @FROGSMILE@charlie962

Thank you all for your assistance in this. Late yesterday afternoon, I searched the internet for about 1 hour and came across a really good site in Calgary, Alberta ( https://www.arcticmedals.com/ ) -- after looking at dozens and dozens of WW1 cap badges and not finding it, I emailed the company and by 7.00 / 7.15 last evening they kindly replied:-

'Hi there Allan,

It's an "unapproved" Officer's Badge for the 30th Battalion, it's in "A source of Pride" on pg 8.

Lots of CEF Badges didn't get officially approved and are hence quite scarce with an endless amount of variations..

Best wishes,

Mike McMahon'

Unfortunately 'A Source of Pride' by Joseph Harris Harper is out of print but I think I will search for a second hand copy.

Thank you for the feedback Allan, it’s good that all our joint efforts have got to the bottom of it.  It’s made me even more curious about the officer himself!

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

@FROGSMILE --- I try to assist others on another forum and I have sent a message with your suggestion that as it is a rare ap badge, would he / she consider sending a copy to the Canadian Archives.

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, Allan1892 said:

@FROGSMILE --- I try to assist others on another forum and I have sent a message with your suggestion that as it is a rare ap badge, would he / she consider sending a copy to the Canadian Archives.

That would be great Allan, and wonderful too if someone should recognise the officer (long shot I know, but perhaps there might have been group photos of the officers).  I don’t know much about Canadian archives ( @RNCVR will know) and only really had canadiansoldier.com in mind when I made the suggestion.

 It has been an intriguing journey for us to collectively solve the ID in a relatively short time.

Edited 24 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[Allan1892]

The power of collective thoughts and ideas