Staffsyeoman Posted 13 April , 2005 Share Posted 13 April , 2005 Harrison - PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but GRRR! It does help to give as much information as possible off the bat. Right, that flash DOES help us a touch. But given the vagiaries of monochrome printing we may not be able to determine exactly. There were three diamond flashes, MG thereon: 1. Red diamond, White MG : 125 Coy 2. Green diamond, White MG : 126 Coy 3. Orange diamond, Red MG : 127 Coy These being the MG Coys of 125, 126 & 127 Bdes, 42nd (East Lancs) Div TF - Served in Egypt and F&F. http://www.1914-1918.net/42div.htm On this path: If he was Lancs Fus - MGC he could be 125 Coy If he was East Lancs - MGC he could be 126 Coy (Sorry Julian, terribly close to 123 Coy...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 13 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 13 April , 2005 Harrison - PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but GRRR! It does help to give as much information as possible off the bat. Right, that flash DOES help us a touch. But given the vagiaries of monochrome printing we may not be able to determine exactly. There were three diamond flashes, MG thereon: 1. Red diamond, White MG : 125 Coy 2. Green diamond, White MG : 126 Coy 3. Orange diamond, Red MG : 127 Coy These being the MG Coys of 125, 126 & 127 Bdes, 42nd (East Lancs) Div TF - Served in Egypt and F&F. http://www.1914-1918.net/42div.htm On this path: If he was Lancs Fus - MGC he could be 125 Coy If he was East Lancs - MGC he could be 126 Coy (Sorry Julian, terribly close to 123 Coy...) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry about that - as Rumsfeld says "there are known knowns, and there are known unknowns,..." anyway I have had that photograph for some years and never noticed the flash until I started on this voyage of exploration and took a magnifying glass to the image. I still think the numbering questions have been interesting - to me at least! So, am I right to understand that only the three companies you list had diamond flashes on the upper arm? If so, I feel progress in the air. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 13 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 13 April , 2005 Harrison - PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but GRRR! It does help to give as much information as possible off the bat. Right, that flash DOES help us a touch. But given the vagiaries of monochrome printing we may not be able to determine exactly. There were three diamond flashes, MG thereon: 1. Red diamond, White MG : 125 Coy 2. Green diamond, White MG : 126 Coy 3. Orange diamond, Red MG : 127 Coy These being the MG Coys of 125, 126 & 127 Bdes, 42nd (East Lancs) Div TF - Served in Egypt and F&F. http://www.1914-1918.net/42div.htm On this path: If he was Lancs Fus - MGC he could be 125 Coy If he was East Lancs - MGC he could be 126 Coy (Sorry Julian, terribly close to 123 Coy...) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> On close examination of the diamond flash, the letters MG are darker than the background colour of the diamond. I guess that means 127 Company. I find it hard to believe it can be that straightforward! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 13 April , 2005 Share Posted 13 April , 2005 Well, Those are the fruits of many months - actually years, of several people's research, cross-referencing several collections and archives, noting errors and consolidating the list.... and those are the only diamonds CONFIRMED thus far.... And that is what recognition patches are for... So it could be that straightforward... assuming the numbering hypothesis is correct.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 14 April , 2005 Share Posted 14 April , 2005 Steve, 1. The two numbers in the medal rolls, if he was in fact in a territorial battalion, may be his original 4 digit number and then his new 6 digit TF number. Being Lancashire Fusiliers this would be consistent with him being 42nd Division and 125th Brigade which contained the 1/5th, 1/6th, 1/7th and 1/8th Battalions. Unfortunately the TF battalions originally started their numbering at 1. There could well have been four men with the same number (4651) in the 125th Brigade. However the 6 digit number should be unique to the regiment. 2. On SDGW Finnigan is listed as formerly Manchesters but the Medal Rolls don't lie and Lancashire Fusiliers certainly fits. 3. After February 1918 the machine gunners of the 42nd Battalion MGC wore a light blue diamond with the letter MG coloured according to company. Black lettering for HQ, Red for A Company, Green for B Company, Yellow for C Company and White for D Company. Red was the colour for the 125th Brigade, green for the 126th and yellow for the 127th (British Territorial Units 1914-1918, Westlake & Chappell, pp. 40). 4. Can you post the photo please mate. Would love to see it. Hope this helps. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 14 April , 2005 Share Posted 14 April , 2005 And some interesting stuff regarding the 3068?? number range for the Lancashire Fusiliers from SDGW. If I were guessing Steve I would say your man was 1/8th Lancashire Fusiliers and then into the 42nd Bn MGC....possibly A Company. 306800 Pte T H Graves, 2/8th Battalion 306804 Pte R A Foster, 2/8th Battalion 306813 Pte W Farnworth, 1/8th Battalion 306830 L/Cpl H T Walden, 1/8th Battalion 306853 Pte J Moran, 1/8th Battalion 306863 Sgt J Kennedy, 1/8th Battalion 306874 Cpl R Cowell DCM, 1/8th Battalion 306878 Pte T Dennison, 1/8th Battalion 306880 Cpl J Evans, 1/8th Battalion 306882 A/Cpl T Gibson, 15th Battalion (a former TF man though given number) Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 14 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2005 And some interesting stuff regarding the 3068?? number range for the Lancashire Fusiliers from SDGW. If I were guessing Steve I would say your man was 1/8th Lancashire Fusiliers and then into the 42nd Bn MGC....possibly A Company. 306800 Pte T H Graves, 2/8th Battalion 306804 Pte R A Foster, 2/8th Battalion 306813 Pte W Farnworth, 1/8th Battalion 306830 L/Cpl H T Walden, 1/8th Battalion 306853 Pte J Moran, 1/8th Battalion 306863 Sgt J Kennedy, 1/8th Battalion 306874 Cpl R Cowell DCM, 1/8th Battalion 306878 Pte T Dennison, 1/8th Battalion 306880 Cpl J Evans, 1/8th Battalion 306882 A/Cpl T Gibson, 15th Battalion (a former TF man though given number) Rgds Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Tim, Thanks for your last two posts - you have all been exceptionally helpful. I'll post the picture as soon as I can. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 14 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2005 Pics as mentioned. My grandfather circled - is that a corporal's insignia on his right arm? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 14 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2005 OK, well he's circled on this one! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 14 April , 2005 Share Posted 14 April , 2005 He certainly is Steve....and how tall is the guy on the far right end!!! Can you do an enlargement of the officers in the centre? I would guess this is one of the 42nd Bn companies. If you look closely there are a few men who appear to have Lancashire Fusiliers hat badges. Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 14 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2005 Hi Tim, Close-up of officers as requested. As for the tall guy - something of a disadvantage in the trenches one might think! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 14 April , 2005 Share Posted 14 April , 2005 All MGC there Steve, Can you try the blokes I have indicated above? A bit hard to tell but I would guess the guy in the middle is a Captain and the OC. The man to his right appears to be a Lt. Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 14 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2005 There you go... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 14 April , 2005 Share Posted 14 April , 2005 Bummer......must be seeing things!!! Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianB Posted 14 April , 2005 Share Posted 14 April , 2005 Getting more and more interesting. There seem to be very roughly 100 men here, so its actually half a company (ie 2 sections, or a very badly understrength one). But, if we can narrow it down to a particular company - and correlate it with WD etc info - it would be particularly useful to those MGC database creators. (yes Phil, wish I had a phot like this for the 123rd !!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 14 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2005 Interesting to see Julian's comment about the number of men in the photo. Now it may be my imagination, but there do seem to be different MG insignia in the picture. See attached. (1 and 3 could be the same, but 2 looks distinctly different). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 14 April , 2005 Share Posted 14 April , 2005 May be just the extra light on it Steve. Can anyone date the photo by the uniforms? Rgds Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 14 April , 2005 Share Posted 14 April , 2005 May be just the extra light on it Steve. Can anyone date the photo by the uniforms? Rgds Tim <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Can't see any overseas service stripes but then again my eyesight isn't what it used to be. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 15 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2005 I think it's more than just a trick of the light, Tim. The attached close-ups definitely seem to show a darker border to the diamond. I also notice some of the men are wearing what seem to be lace-up leather boots or leg-guards rather than puttees. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 18 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 18 April , 2005 I think it's more than just a trick of the light, Tim. The attached close-ups definitely seem to show a darker border to the diamond. I also notice some of the men are wearing what seem to be lace-up leather boots or leg-guards rather than puttees. Steve <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Any uniform experts out there who can suggest dates for the photograph? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 23 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2005 Just a brief post to end this thread with a note of thanks to all those who contributed. From just a regiment and a number, it now seems the best guess is 1/8th Lancashire Fusiliers (125th MGC), transferred to 42nd Battalion MGC. I guess the next step is to explore the service records for surviving documents of those LF/MGC men closest to my grandfather's number. But at least I've got something to go on - thanks again everyone. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 23 April , 2005 Share Posted 23 April , 2005 Sorry, Steve. I forgot about this post! I was going to update you about my searches at the PRO. My own Service Records searches last week turned up very little that I could use. Out of my 15 "test" searches for RE service records around my relative, not one of them survived! (or I couldn't find them at least) I'm sure the "logic" could still work but I probably just had bad luck with mine. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrison Posted 23 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2005 Sorry, Steve. I forgot about this post! I was going to update you about my searches at the PRO. My own Service Records searches last week turned up very little that I could use. Out of my 15 "test" searches for RE service records around my relative, not one of them survived! (or I couldn't find them at least) I'm sure the "logic" could still work but I probably just had bad luck with mine. Steve <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Steve, Sorry you didn't have more luck. I'll let you know whether my efforts are any more fruitful when I can find an excuse for another trip to the smoke - could be a while! Let me know if you have any other lateral brainwaves... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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