Lancashire Fusiliers / Machine Gun Corps

[harrison]

Pte. Alexander Gordon Armstrong HARRISON

Lancashire Fusiliers, Pte. 4651

Machine Gun Corps, Cpl. 141748

I am planning a Western Front walk next Spring and, in the hope of making it more personal, am trying to find where my grandfather served (details above). From his MIC I know that he served in the LF and later the MGC (Medal Roll ref: MGC / 101 Roll 89, P. 7043), but unfortunately the Medal Roll gives no Battalion details, and his Service Records (WO363 or 364) do not seem to have survived.

The only family information we have is that my grandfather talked about having seen the mine go up at Messines (June 7th 1917). Given this, does anyone know whether it's possible to whittle down the possible units with which he could have served?

Is it possible to tie these various strands together, or even to use soldiers' service numbers to connect them to particular units?

Any help or alternative thoughts gratefully received.

[Mark Hone]

I'm no expert on regimental numbers I'm afraid. My first inclination was that 4650 is a low number, and might indicate a regular. Sure enough of the three LF men in the 4650's recorded on 'Soldiers Died...', two were from 1st Battalion. The other however was 16th Battalion (2nd Salford Pals). No doubt someone else will know more.

[Simon Furnell]

Hello Harrison.

Shot in the dark,this one,but the low number was probably his original enlistment number on call up.

My G-G had a very low number when he first went in,6515,which i think he recieved in about July,1916 or so.

He wasn't a pre-war regular,but a kind of Conscript.

He later transfered to the MGC,in about Oct/Nov of 1916 and was given the Number 73313.

He originally served with the Royal Berks,and then went into an MGC Company that was in a Division,containing a Royal Berks Battalion.

It maybe worth a try using the Long Long Trail,above,and see if you can find an MG Company,or Companies,that were in the same Division or Brigade as the LF.

From what i remember,the MGC numbering system was fairly regular i.e Consecutive numbers,up until the middle or end of 1917,and then it got a bit hectic,but i'm not sure if you can trace them by number,unless one of our MGC experts can help.

Another group that may be able to help is the MGC Old Comrades Association(try a search),who have a very good researcher,and he maybe able to point you in the right direction.

The MGC were organised in Company's before February 1918,and then were grouped into Battalions,the number of the Battalion being the Division number they served with i.e 8th Division battalion being the 8th Battalion The MGC.

I'm surprised there is no mention of this on his cards.

Just one Question.

Did he survive the war,or was he killed?

Hope this is of some help.

All the best.

Simon.

[harrison]

Thanks for your replies Simon and Mark.

I'm pretty sure that my grandfather wasn't a regular, and he did survive the war and, indeed the peace that followed which he complained about far more often!

In the absence of any other Battalion information, I have done a bit of lateral thinking, and it seems that there is a correlation between MGC numbering and the number of the Brigade to which the source regiment was originally allocated. For example, The 5th Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers went to Egypt with 125th Brigade, 42nd Division in September 1914. From the War Diary of 5th Battalion LF, it seems that the Battalion included 125th MGC (also 126th and 127th). This holds good for other LF Battalions as far as I have explored - ie: 2/5th LF joined 154th Brigade, 51st Division, and included 154th MGC: 9th Battalion LF joined 34th Brigade, 11th Division, and included 34th MGC, etc.

From all this I can narrow down the MG Companies which were drawn from LF Battalions (1st = 86th MGC, 2nd = 12th, 5th = 125th, 2/5th = 154th, 3/5th = 197th, 6th as 5th, 2/6th = 197th, 7th as 5th, 2/7th = 197th, 8th as 5th, 2/8th as 2/6th, 9th = 34th, 10th = 52nd, 11th = 74th, 12th = 65th, 15th = 96th, 16th as 15th, 17th = 104th, 18th as 17th, 19th as 15th, 20th as 17th and 18th. Of course, this all makes the huge assumption that my man moved to the MGC within his original regiment!

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts so far - all contributions welcome!

[hmsk212]

Hi

With the service number of 141748 he joined the MGC quite late, suggesting that it is highly likely that he saw the Messines Mine whilst he was still with the Lancashire Fusiliers.

Steve

[hmsk212]

Hi

Further to the above post, this would suggest that he served with either the 9th (Service) Btn Lancashire Fusiliers, part of 34th Bde, 11th Division or 11th (Service) Btn Lancashire Fusiliers, part of 74th Bde, 25th Division. This may also narrow his MGC Unit to 34th or 74th Coy / 11th or 25th Btn. However, the MGC was never an exact science and he could have served in virtually any Coy or Bde.

Steve

[harrison]

Hi

With the service number of 141748 he joined the MGC quite late, suggesting that it is highly likely that he saw the Messines Mine whilst he was still with the Lancashire Fusiliers.

Steve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for that thought Steve - but is it possible to be more precise about the date of joining the MGC from his number?

Steve (yes, another one!)

[Stebie9173]

You could always try searching for a number of soldiers in the MGC with numbers consecutive to his and seeing if you can find their intact service records at the PRO? They would have transfer dates and you could see how many numbers were allocated at the same time (hopefully all)

I'm going to try this with my great-uncles RE transfer. I'll let you know if it works!

I would suggest discarding any John Smiths

Steve (Yes, yet another one!!)

[Ken Lees]

... 2/5th LF joined 154th Brigade, 51st Division, and included 154th MGC: 9th Battalion LF joined 34th Brigade, 11th Division, and included 34th MGC, etc.

From all this I can narrow down the MG Companies which were drawn from LF Battalions (1st = 86th MGC, 2nd = 12th, 5th = 125th, 2/5th = 154th, 3/5th = 197th, 6th as 5th, 2/6th = 197th, 7th as 5th, 2/7th = 197th, 8th as 5th, 2/8th as 2/6th, 9th = 34th, 10th = 52nd, 11th = 74th, 12th = 65th, 15th = 96th, 16th as 15th, 17th = 104th, 18th as 17th, 19th as 15th, 20th as 17th and 18th. Of course, this all makes the huge assumption that my man moved to the MGC within his original regiment!

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts so far - all contributions welcome!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As you suggest, the Brigade Machine Gun Companies were numbered as the Brigade, so the Company number tells you which Brigade they were formed to serve with. But, the 2/5th LF were not 154 Brigade, 51st Division, they were 164 Brigade, 55th Division.

Later, the Machine Gun Companies were amalgamated into Machine Gun Battalions, and these Battalions were numbered as per the Division, e.g. 164. 165 & 166 MG Companies became 55th MG Battalion, 55th Division.

Ken

[Simon Furnell]

Found a book,that has helped me quite a bit.

Called"More sources of WW1 Army Ancestry,3rd Edition",by Norman Holding.

He says of the MGC,"Formed 14th of October 1915,with about 3,000 to 4,000 men.By 26th of April 1916 the regimental numbers had reached 32,750 at a rate of about a 100 per day until September(1916) when the rate of increase became spasmodic(say 180,000 in September 1917)".

Lot of maths,i know(not my subject),but you maybe able to make a guesstimate,much as i did.

After the German sucess on the Somme with the MG,it really became an important

tool on the battlefield and meant that,for 1917,more firepower was needed.

All the best.

Simon.

[Blackblue]

Have looked at SDGW for men of this number. A definite pattern which falls in nicely with the Lancashire Fusiliers in the 42nd Division. There were ten men between 141700 and 141800 who died. All men (seven) between 141718 and 141786 were 42nd Battalion, MGC. This is consistent with him being 1/5th, 1/6th, 1/7th or 1/8th Battalions. The men's previous units were as follows:

141718 3484 East Lancs

141736 4440 Manchesters

141745 1757 Lancs Fus

141768 5797 Manchesters

141771 2420 Manchesters

141777 3615 Manchesters

141786 2158 Manchesters

I would suggest there is fairly strong evidence he was in the 42nd Battalion, and had come there via the 125th Brigade.

Rgds

Tim D

[hmsk212]

He says of the MGC,"Formed 14th of October 1915,with about 3,000 to 4,000 men.By 26th of April 1916 the regimental numbers had reached 32,750 at a rate of about a 100 per day until September(1916) when the rate of increase became spasmodic(say 180,000 in September 1917)".

The number 180,000 wasn't reached until well into 1918. January 1917 saw the numbers around 83,000. February 86,000, March 87,500, May 105,000 etc. After the March 1918 German Offensive numbers increased for a while with 145,000 being reached in April 1918.

Steve

[hmsk212]

Thanks for that thought Steve - but is it possible to be more precise about the date of joining the MGC from his number?

Steve (yes, another one!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Steve

Probably late March 1918 to early April 1918 this means he was more likely to have joined a Battalion than a Company.

Steve

[hmsk212]

Have looked at SDGW for men of this number.  A definite pattern which falls in nicely with the Lancashire Fusiliers in the 42nd Division.  There were ten men between 141700 and 141800 who died.  All men (seven) between 141718 and 141786 were 42nd Battalion, MGC.  This is consistent with him being 1/5th, 1/6th, 1/7th or 1/8th Battalions. The men's previous units were as follows:

141718 3484 East Lancs

141736 4440 Manchesters

141745 1757 Lancs Fus

141768 5797 Manchesters

141771 2420 Manchesters

141777 3615 Manchesters

141786 2158 Manchesters

I would suggest there is fairly strong evidence he was in the 42nd Battalion, and had come there via the 125th Brigade. 

Rgds

Tim D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Tim

I wish it was that simple, trouble with the MGC is you can have 20 men from a Regiment all transfer to the MGC on the same day with 18 going to one Battalion and for what seems like no reason at all 2 going to completely different Battalions. I always seem to end up trying to research the odd 2 rather than the other 18.

Steve

[Blackblue]

Cheers Steve,

Sounds like you have the same sort of luck I do! If not strong evidence....at least a definite indication I suppose.

Rgds

Tim D

[Staffsyeoman]

Concur utterly with everything Steve's put thus far, and another wrinkle.. Assuming he joined an MG Coy rather than a Bn, he could of course have gone to the 'independent' (I put it in quotes as it was not technically called that) fourth company in any division as well. (240 Coy in 34 Div)

MGC numbering - again to concur with Steve, who knows his numbers - is never an exact science (I only wish it were) - you're only ever on the 'best guess' unless you have additional collateral.

Just to show: there is an MGC MM winner 141315 - not THAT far away, but he was 25 Bn. Just shows simple arithmetic doesn't read across.

There's a strong trail here, but it's not a tarmac-ed raod, sadly...

[harrison]

First of all, thanks to everyone who has helped out on this one - as a newcomer to this forum I'm grateful for your time as well as being impressed by the depth of knowledge.

As Phil says, the numbers do suggest a pattern: ie: Lancashire Fusiliers until early 1918, then transfer to a MG Battalion. I did note when looking at the MGC Medal Roll (MGC/101 Roll 89 P.7043), that my grandfather's number sits within a batch which are all Lancashire Fusiliers - from 141735 Barlow Cpl. H, to 141748 Harrison, Cpl. A.G.A. although none have any Battalion information and their LF numbers range from 123 to 36933. It would be interesting to know whether any of their service records survive? Of these 13 men, two were killed in action - 141736 Pte James Finnegan (KiA 28/8/1918) and 141745 Pte. George Foy (KiA 2/9/1918) - I don't know whether this helps to further narrow the possibilities?

One other thing I noticed on my grandfather's MGC Medal Roll was that alongside his Lancashire Fusiliers entry is the number 306858, crossed out in red ink with the number 4651 written alongside. It appears from the Roll that this "re-numbering" is fairly common - does it signify anything or is it some administrative revision?

I do have what appears to be a MGC training course group photo, which I will post when I get it scanned, on which it is possible to make out a diamond insignia on the upper sleeve with the letters "MG" - I don't know whether this helps to date the course?

So many questions!

[harrison]

Have looked at SDGW for men of this number.  A definite pattern which falls in nicely with the Lancashire Fusiliers in the 42nd Division.  There were ten men between 141700 and 141800 who died.  All men (seven) between 141718 and 141786 were 42nd Battalion, MGC.  This is consistent with him being 1/5th, 1/6th, 1/7th or 1/8th Battalions. The men's previous units were as follows:

141718 3484 East Lancs

141736 4440 Manchesters

141745 1757 Lancs Fus

141768 5797 Manchesters

141771 2420 Manchesters

141777 3615 Manchesters

141786 2158 Manchesters

I would suggest there is fairly strong evidence he was in the 42nd Battalion, and had come there via the 125th Brigade. 

Rgds

Tim D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Tim,

Thanks for this - there is definitely the germ of something interesting in this. Looking at the Medal Roll (MGC/101 Roll 89 P.7043), my grandfather's record falls in a batch of 13 consecutively numbered LF men from 141735 Barlow to 141748 Harrison (my man). Of these two were killed in action - 141736 Pte James Finnegan (KiA 28/8/1918), and the one you mention in your post 141746 Pte George Foy (KiA 2/9/1918). The next batch of numbers are all Manchesters as you say.

Hmmm...

[harrison]

You could always try searching for a number of soldiers in the MGC with numbers consecutive to his and seeing if you can find their intact service records at the PRO? They would have transfer dates and you could see how many numbers were allocated at the same time (hopefully all)

I'm going to try this with my great-uncles RE transfer. I'll let you know if it works!

I would suggest discarding any John Smiths

Steve (Yes, yet another one!!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Steve,

I did note consecutive MGC numbers adjoining my grandfather (see my earlier post) with the vague thought that the pattern suggested there could be some batch allocation system going on. He was one of a group of 13 LFs with consecutive numbers, 2 of whom were KiA in August and September 1918.

I'll definitely try your suggestion next time I'm at TNA - though living in rural Norfolk that could have to wait a while! I'd certainly be interested to know whether you have any success with this approach.

Regards,

Steve

[JulianB]

I've followed this discussion with interest as I'm trying to find men from a specific MGC Company. I know of about 50 odd and then typed adjacent numbers into the online MIC (under 'unit / corps' - MGC) and came up with a number of possibles. Sure enough there were some very rare MIC cases where they give the Coy which produced, as Steve noted, some wobblies. Anyway, my next step - when I have time - is to go through the microfilms of surviving service records to see what / who is there, statistically, some ought to be there !!

I'll keep you posted, but don't wait up !!, it's likely to be a few months away !!

[Stebie9173]

Steve,

I'm up at the NA tomorrow. I'll keep you posted!

All my adjacent RE men were also transfers from different Regiments/Battalions, as was my great-uncle, so they COULD have been at the same time. The same could possibly apply to the MGC, couldn't it?

Steve.

[harrison]

Steve,

I'm up at the NA tomorrow. I'll keep you posted!

All my adjacent RE men were also transfers from different Regiments/Battalions, as was my great-uncle, so they COULD have been at the same time. The same could possibly apply to the MGC, couldn't it?

Steve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Looking forward to hearing whether this bears fruit - sounds logical but did 'logic' and 'army' ever go together?

Steve

[harrison]

Further to the discussion about whether consecutive numbering might hold any hope of additional information, I've come across something which has thrown me. I thought I might try Julian's suggestion of typing in adjacent numbers into the MIC index. Trying this for the Lancashire Fusiliers and my grandfather's number 4651, I find there are MICs for 3 LF soldiers with that number, and 4 for 4650, and 5 for 4649! Can anyone enlighten me on what this means? I assumed numbers were unique within regiments.

Steve

[JulianB]

Yes, they should be, within the same regt. I THINK that if you expand / open up the entry, it should show that soldier Bloggs started as X Regt 1234, then went on to Y Regt as 3456 and so on. Whereas another soldier might have been 1234 in Y regt - if you see what I mean. I had to open up hundreds looking at / for MGC sequences

[harrison]

Yes, they should be, within the same regt. I THINK that if you expand / open up the entry, it should show that soldier Bloggs started as X Regt 1234, then went on to Y Regt as 3456 and so on. Whereas another soldier might have been 1234 in Y regt - if you see what I mean. I had to open up hundreds looking at / for MGC sequences

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see what you mean, but there are definitely numerous occurences of the same number in the same regiment - try entering Lancashire Fusiliers in the "Corps" box, and 4651 in the "Keyword" box. I can only think that, if numbers were unique within a regiment (as opposed to a Battalion) then numbers must have been reallocated when a man moved to a different unit and was given a new number. No doubt someone will know?

Steve