michaeldr Posted 23 September , 2023 Share Posted 23 September , 2023 (edited) Quote: You mentioned: "Baikosh-Battery", which sounds similar to the "Beikusch-Battery" described on the map below, but was apparently on the European side of the Dardanelles. Please note that on the Gallipoli battlefields it is not unknown for different places to have similar or even the same name. For example, at Suvla there are is an 'Azmak' which runs into the north of the Salt Lake, and there is also a different 'Asmak' further south which formed the boundary between Suvla and Anzac. Quote from my previous post:- The Mitchell Report has the following on p.446 SECTION II.—POLICY AND DEVELOPMENT OF COAST DEFENCES. (A) Period, 18th March, 1915, to Evacuation of Gallipoli Peninsula (January, 1916). 5. The principal developments under (a) to (d) during the period of our occupation of the Gallipoli Peninsula were :— … … … (c) (i) … (ii) … (iii) … (iv) Baikosh Battery (No. 53a), two 10.5 cm. Q.F., May, 1915, for action against Helles. See the description given here https://epdf.tips/the-troad-oxford-university-press-academic-monograph-reprints.html - “West of Çakal Tepe the ridge stretches 3 km. to In Tepe. This is what in part or whole is called Baykus (Kukumagu) Tepe. On the 1:50,000 map `Baikosh Tepe' is marked on the southern slope, which the villagers of Halileli in fact call Dede Bayiri; but the placing of names on these maps is always imprecise.” That latter phrase is worth particular note! Please see the map https://www.naval-history.net/WW1Book-RN2-P04.jpg and the crop where the places mentioned (Chakal Tepe, In Tepe & Dede Bair) are all shown Edit to add quote:- On the 1:50,000 map `Baikosh Tepe' is marked on the southern slope, which the villagers of Halileli in fact call Dede Bayiri; but the placing of names on these maps is always imprecise.” Dede Bair will be the spur beneath the words The Achilleum which has heights 57, 55 & 53 marked on it Edited 23 September , 2023 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 23 September , 2023 Share Posted 23 September , 2023 5 hours ago, michaeldr said: Quote: You mentioned: "Baikosh-Battery", which sounds similar to the "Beikusch-Battery" described on the map below, but was apparently on the European side of the Dardanelles. Please note that on the Gallipoli battlefields it is not unknown for different places to have similar or even the same name. For example, at Suvla there are is an 'Azmak' which runs into the north of the Salt Lake, and there is also a different 'Asmak' further south which formed the boundary between Suvla and Anzac. Quote from my previous post:- The Mitchell Report has the following on p.446 SECTION II.—POLICY AND DEVELOPMENT OF COAST DEFENCES. (A) Period, 18th March, 1915, to Evacuation of Gallipoli Peninsula (January, 1916). 5. The principal developments under (a) to (d) during the period of our occupation of the Gallipoli Peninsula were :— … … … (c) (i) … (ii) … (iii) … (iv) Baikosh Battery (No. 53a), two 10.5 cm. Q.F., May, 1915, for action against Helles. See the description given here https://epdf.tips/the-troad-oxford-university-press-academic-monograph-reprints.html - “West of Çakal Tepe the ridge stretches 3 km. to In Tepe. This is what in part or whole is called Baykus (Kukumagu) Tepe. On the 1:50,000 map `Baikosh Tepe' is marked on the southern slope, which the villagers of Halileli in fact call Dede Bayiri; but the placing of names on these maps is always imprecise.” That latter phrase is worth particular note! Please see the map https://www.naval-history.net/WW1Book-RN2-P04.jpg and the crop where the places mentioned (Chakal Tepe, In Tepe & Dede Bair) are all shown Edit to add quote:- On the 1:50,000 map `Baikosh Tepe' is marked on the southern slope, which the villagers of Halileli in fact call Dede Bayiri; but the placing of names on these maps is always imprecise.” Dede Bair will be the spur beneath the words The Achilleum which has heights 57, 55 & 53 marked on it Michael, yes understand; - I didn't take the different years (installation differences from 1915 and 1916) enough into account. I will download more documents to compare both years in a better way. Thanks again for your detailed explanations. Regards Holger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 23 September , 2023 Share Posted 23 September , 2023 (edited) Thanks to the reference from 'michaeldr', further photo-documents could be viewed. "The "SMS Breslau"/Midilli on 24 June 1917 during a mining operation in the Black Sea" This photo is a bit confusing. At this time, summer 1917 the re-armament of the Breslau should have already been completed. This can also be seen very clearly on the starboard side with the three 15-cm Krupp QF L/45 guns, based on the contour of the protective shields. Only the positioning at the rear is not clear. In my opinion, two guns can be seen; - and they have different sizes?! Assuming that there is one 15-cm gun at the bow, and (for balance reasons alone) another six 15-cm guns were installed on both the starboard and port sides, then only one 15-cm gun would be left at the stern to reach the total number of eight. But, In my opinion at the rear, two guns can be seen; - and they are different sizes?! A larger one on the port side (15-cm?), and a smaller one (10.5-cm?) on the starboard side. If that were the case, there are eight 15-cm and one 10.5-cm gun; - which I don't believe. Furthermore, the (one or two) gun(s) are located on the aft deck superstructure, and not at the level of the mine rails, which again contradicts the photo on page 1. This may also have been the reason why the author Erich Gröner had the last 15 cm gun placed on the hut aft deck superstructure in his side view from the "SMS Breslau"? Original Source: The Ottoman Steam Navy 1828-1923, Edited & Translated by James Cooper, page 53 https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/page/n3/mode/2up As `The Treasure´ has already perfectly formulated: "The changes to Breslau armament are complicated" "The "SMS Breslau"/Midilli Summer 1915, being rearmed from 10.5 cm to 15 cm, rear view." The photo also shows the stern section of the small cruiser Breslau. The source mentioned the summer of 1915, after the mine hit in February of the same year. Here a 15 cm Krupp QF L/45 is currently being placed and assembled in the middle of the rear position by using a crane. The contour of the larger protective shield can also be seen here. Here too, the contour of the larger protective shield of the 15 cm Gun can be seen compared to that of the 10.5 cm Gun. On the left side, in the background, a 10.5 cm gun can be seen on the hat aft deck superstructure. The purely constructive question here is that I don't first remove guns that should be removed before I bring in new ones? Or is this a reference to the asymmetrical placement of the guns that 'The Tresasure' already mentioned on page 1? Original Source: The Ottoman Steam Navy 1828-1923, Edited & Translated by James Cooper, page 105 https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/page/n3/mode/2up Regards Holger Edited 23 September , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted 24 September , 2023 Share Posted 24 September , 2023 (edited) On 23/09/2023 at 18:53, Holger Kotthaus said: Thanks to the reference from 'michaeldr', further photo-documents could be viewed. "The "SMS Breslau"/Midilli on 24 June 1917 during a mining operation in the Black Sea" This photo is a bit confusing. At this time, summer 1917 the re-armament of the Breslau should have already been completed. This can also be seen very clearly on the starboard side with the three 15-cm Krupp QF L/45 guns, based on the contour of the protective shields. Only the positioning at the rear is not clear. In my opinion, two guns can be seen; - and they have different sizes?! Assuming that there is one 15-cm gun at the bow, and (for balance reasons alone) another six 15-cm guns were installed on both the starboard and port sides, then only one 15-cm gun would be left at the stern to reach the total number of eight. But, In my opinion at the rear, two guns can be seen; - and they are different sizes?! A larger one on the port side (15-cm?), and a smaller one (10.5-cm?) on the starboard side. If that were the case, there are eight 15-cm and one 10.5-cm gun; - which I don't believe. Furthermore, the (one or two) gun(s) are located on the aft deck superstructure, and not at the level of the mine rails, which again contradicts the photo on page 1. This may also have been the reason why the author Erich Gröner had the last 15 cm gun placed on the hut aft deck superstructure in his side view from the "SMS Breslau"? Original Source: The Ottoman Steam Navy 1828-1923, Edited & Translated by James Cooper, page 53 https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/page/n3/mode/2up As `The Treasure´ has already perfectly formulated: "The changes to Breslau armament are complicated" "The "SMS Breslau"/Midilli Summer 1915, being rearmed from 10.5 cm to 15 cm, rear view." The photo also shows the stern section of the small cruiser Breslau. The source mentioned the summer of 1915, after the mine hit in February of the same year. Here a 15 cm Krupp QF L/45 is currently being placed and assembled in the middle of the rear position by using a crane. The contour of the larger protective shield can also be seen here. Here too, the contour of the larger protective shield of the 15 cm Gun can be seen compared to that of the 10.5 cm Gun. On the left side, in the background, a 10.5 cm gun can be seen on the hat aft deck superstructure. The purely constructive question here is that I don't first remove guns that should be removed before I bring in new ones? Or is this a reference to the asymmetrical placement of the guns that 'The Tresasure' already mentioned on page 1? Original Source: The Ottoman Steam Navy 1828-1923, Edited & Translated by James Cooper, page 105 https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/page/n3/mode/2up Regards Holger Holger Very interesting and useful photos, so well found! With regards to the top picture of the fully re-armed Breslau, the installation at the back is actually a large base rangefinder, although I can see how you would confuse it for two guns - I think it is a 3m stereoscopic RF - the operator would sit in the middle. It has a cover to protect the delicate instrumentation from the elements. The picture of the stern 15cm being fitted is very useful. As you say, you can clearly see the Port no.6 gun is still installed above it at this point - the starboard having been previously removed. Edited 24 September , 2023 by The Treasurer amend apparent rangefinder size Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 24 September , 2023 Share Posted 24 September , 2023 34 minutes ago, The Treasurer said: Holger Very interesting and useful photos, so well found! With regards to the top picture of the fully re-armed Breslau, the installation at the back is actually a large base rangefinder, although I can see how you would confuse it for two guns - I think it is a 5m stereoscopic RF - the operator would sit in the middle. It has a cover to protect the delicate instrumentation from the elements. The picture of the stern 15cm being fitted is very useful. As you say, you can clearly see the Port no.6 gun is still installed above it at this point - the starboard having been previously removed. The Treasurer, I had already thought about that, but since there was already a standard rangefinder underneath the headlights, I discarded this idea. But the continuous tarpaulin supports your comment. Is there any evidence in the sources for your legitimate doubts or comments? This means that all small cruisers that previously had 10.5 cm guns were also retrofitted with an (additional) rangefinder when they were converted to 15 cm? Regards Holger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted 24 September , 2023 Share Posted 24 September , 2023 41 minutes ago, Holger Kotthaus said: The Treasurer, I had already thought about that, but since there was already a standard rangefinder underneath the headlights, I discarded this idea. But the continuous tarpaulin supports your comment. Is there any evidence in the sources for your legitimate doubts or comments? This means that all small cruisers that previously had 10.5 cm guns were also retrofitted with an (additional) rangefinder when they were converted to 15 cm? Regards Holger Holger Light cruisers carried two fire control positions, one forward and one aft. The aft control position would take control when the forward control was out of arc, or if it was disabled. Each position was supported by a rangefinder, but on some light cruisers three rangefinders were carried, two forward (bridge and conning tower) and one aft - the exact placement varied from ship to ship. These are shown on contemporary plans of 15cm rearmed cruisers. Improved fire control came in with the 15cm gun refits on the light cruisers in late war period. Rangefinders were normally 3m (5m and 8m were also available, but the latter was only ever used on capital ships). Based on the man standing next to the rangefinder I thought this looked about 5m, but, assuming he is 1.6m or so tall, actually it looks like the normal 3m used for 15cm gun batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 25 September , 2023 Share Posted 25 September , 2023 10 hours ago, The Treasurer said: Holger Light cruisers carried two fire control positions, one forward and one aft. The aft control position would take control when the forward control was out of arc, or if it was disabled. Each position was supported by a rangefinder, but on some light cruisers three rangefinders were carried, two forward (bridge and conning tower) and one aft - the exact placement varied from ship to ship. These are shown on contemporary plans of 15cm rearmed cruisers. Improved fire control came in with the 15cm gun refits on the light cruisers in late war period. Rangefinders were normally 3m (5m and 8m were also available, but the latter was only ever used on capital ships). Based on the man standing next to the rangefinder I thought this looked about 5m, but, assuming he is 1.6m or so tall, actually it looks like the normal 3m used for 15cm gun batteries. Mark, Thanks for reply and extensive expleantions. Basically I agree with you and I'm not convinced about a ninth or two different guns at the rear. Your explanation of a range finder is also supported by the fact that no gun protection shield can be seen under the tarpaulin. BUT . . . According to BROOKS, all German battlecruisers (!) during the `Battle of Skagerrak´ had Zeiss Devices-Rangefinders with a 3 m base length. BROOKS notes furthermore that the German 3 m Devices-Rangefinders were as accurate at 20,000 yds (18,288 m) as the British 9 ft devices at 15-16,000 yds (13,716-14,630 m). Source: DREADNOUGT Gunnery and the Battle of Jutland `The Question of Fire Control´, John BROOKS 2005 https://www.routledge.com/Dreadnought-Gunnery-and-the-Battle-of-Jutland-The-Question-of-Fire-Control/Brooks/p/book/9780415407885 And with a maximum range of 17,279 yds (15,800 m) in 27° height, a Device- Rangefinder with a basic length of 3 m for the 15 cm SK L/45 on M.P.L C/14, would actually be too much. As explained above: The 3 m base units were used for 28 cm and 30 cm guns (!) in 1916. Therefore, it can be assumed with 'almost certainty' that in 1916 there were no devices rangefinders with 5 m base length were available for the "SMS Breslau". Regards Holger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 27 September , 2023 Share Posted 27 September , 2023 Comparison of small cruiser 10.5 cm with 15 cm & devices rangefinders Since I always follow references, I tried to find further comparative evidence about the devices rangefinders on small German cruisers; - especially the "SMS Breslau" A few other small German cruisers were also re-armed from 10.5 to 15 cm during the war, and in the course of this they probably also received an enlarged range of equipment? (devices rangefinders). I wasn't able to find a direct photo comparison of one and the same small Cruiser, before: 10.5 cm; - after: 15 cm. However, there are several comparative graphics: (The designers at “shipbucket.com” are well known for their precise detailing.) "SMS Regensburg" in 1916 with 10.5 cm: http://shipbucket.com/drawings/2178/file "SMS Regensburg" in 1918 with 15 cm: http://shipbucket.com/drawings/2179/file "SMS Stralsund" in 1915 with 10.5 cm http://shipbucket.com/drawings/2181/file "SMS Stralsund" in 1917 with 15 cm http://shipbucket.com/drawings/2182/file However, the Breslau can only be found with the early 10.5 cm - variant. Maybe they had the same problem as us? "SMS Breslau" in 1914 http://shipbucket.com/drawings/2157/file Regards Holger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Treasurer Posted 27 September , 2023 Share Posted 27 September , 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Holger Kotthaus said: Comparison of small cruiser 10.5 cm with 15 cm & devices rangefinders Since I always follow references, I tried to find further comparative evidence about the devices rangefinders on small German cruisers; - especially the "SMS Breslau" A few other small German cruisers were also re-armed from 10.5 to 15 cm during the war, and in the course of this they probably also received an enlarged range of equipment? (devices rangefinders). I wasn't able to find a direct photo comparison of one and the same small Cruiser, before: 10.5 cm; - after: 15 cm. However, there are several comparative graphics: (The designers at “shipbucket.com” are well known for their precise detailing.) "SMS Regensburg" in 1916 with 10.5 cm: http://shipbucket.com/drawings/2178/file "SMS Regensburg" in 1918 with 15 cm: http://shipbucket.com/drawings/2179/file "SMS Stralsund" in 1915 with 10.5 cm http://shipbucket.com/drawings/2181/file "SMS Stralsund" in 1917 with 15 cm http://shipbucket.com/drawings/2182/file However, the Breslau can only be found with the early 10.5 cm - variant. Maybe they had the same problem as us? "SMS Breslau" in 1914 http://shipbucket.com/drawings/2157/file Regards Holger Holger The Dreadnought Project have a nice set of original builders plans, which are a very helpful reference if you want to check details. Even builder plans are not perfect though - they show what was planned and reality can be different. The best authority is always original photos. Here is the plan of the SMS Dresden clearly showing the 3m rangefinder forward (this is the new 1918 cruiser, not the one sunk in 1915). The aft control is shown with a small base rangefinder (BG for BasisGerät on the plan) - something better may have been fitted. Note that early plans also often don't show rangefinders (the earliest rangefinders used by the Kaiserliche Marine were of the small 1.5m type). : http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Dresden_ii_1918/obere_ansicht_100dpi.jpg Edited 27 September , 2023 by The Treasurer clarified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 28 September , 2023 Share Posted 28 September , 2023 (edited) 20 hours ago, The Treasurer said: Holger The Dreadnought Project have a nice set of original builders plans, which are a very helpful reference if you want to check details. Even builder plans are not perfect though - they show what was planned and reality can be different. The best authority is always original photos. Here is the plan of the SMS Dresden clearly showing the 3m rangefinder forward (this is the new 1918 cruiser, not the one sunk in 1915). The aft control is shown with a small base rangefinder (BG for BasisGerät on the plan) - something better may have been fitted. Note that early plans also often don't show rangefinders (the earliest rangefinders used by the Kaiserliche Marine were of the small 1.5m type). : http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Dresden_ii_1918/obere_ansicht_100dpi.jpg Yes, the Dreadnought Project offers a wide range of detailed original construction drawings. The deck view / elevation of the "SMS Dresden II" shows the last, and therefore most modern, light cruiser of the Imperial Navy. An optical rangefinder can also be seen on the armored command post near the bow. The proportions suggest a 3 m basic device. With great certainty, however, not on a 5 m basic device. As far as I was able to determine from various German sources, there were 3 m and 5 m basic devices as optical rangefinders on German light Cruisers, battleships and battlecruisers at the beginning of the war up until the Battle of Skagerrak (31. May 1916). It was only from this date that, based on experience, a very serious further development took place on British and German ships. As the last German development, the "SMS Bayern" and "SMS Bayern" were then equipped with a rangefinder with a base length of 8 m. I don't want to expand the topic unnecessarily, but as you've already noticed: The best authority is always original photos, as: "The normative power of the fact". That's why I tried to follow up on the photo-documentary evidence again, below. The "SMS Breslau"/Midilli on 24 June 1917 during a mining operation in the Black Sea Original Source, page 53 https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/page/n3/mode/2up Here only as a comparison of the proportions. Although the following should be noted: Photos come from the 1920s, i.e. after the First World War It's not the "SMS Breslau"/Midilli, but the "SMS Goeben"/Yavuz Sultan Selim Probably not the original position on one of the rear turrets The GOEBEN Yesterday & Today in photos Edited 28 September , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus eddit minor details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 28 September , 2023 Share Posted 28 September , 2023 (edited) Original Sources: page 289: https://stefsap.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/warship_international_fall_1969-35.jpeg page 297: https://stefsap.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/warship_international_fall_1969-43.jpeg In: The GOEBEN Yesterday & Today in photos; - by stefsap https://stefsap.wordpress.com/2015/12/31/sms-goeben-yavuz-sultan-selim-battlecruiser/ Regards Holger Edited 28 September , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 30 September , 2023 Share Posted 30 September , 2023 (edited) TWO ADDITIONAL 10.5 cm BRESLAU-GUNS NEAR BAGHDAD? Since the main topic is thematically wide-ranging, we have to change location again, into the direction of Baghdad on the Tigris and the upper reaches of the Euphrates. I. - Two 10.5 cm Guns were lost on Tigris-River at Baghdad on 11. March 1917 Original Source, page 56 (Typo; - Baghdad was occupied already on 11. March 1917) https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/page/n3/mode/2up Does anyone know of any other British or Turkish sources that confirm this? Regards Holger Edited 30 September , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 1 October , 2023 Share Posted 1 October , 2023 (edited) 23 hours ago, Holger Kotthaus said: TWO ADDITIONAL 10.5 cm BRESLAU-GUNS NEAR BAGHDAD? Since the main topic is thematically wide-ranging, we have to change location again, into the direction of Baghdad on the Tigris and the upper reaches of the Euphrates. Original Source, page 56 (Typo; - Baghdad was occupied already on 11. March 1917) https://archive.org/details/learnislampdfenglishbooktheottomansteamnavy18281923/page/n3/mode/2up Does anyone know of any other British or Turkish sources that confirm this? Regards Holger There is confirmation from a Turkish source of the presence or loss of two 10.5 cm guns on barges during the retreat from Baghdad in Spring 1917. "TURKISH NAVAL OPERATION IN 1917 - J. IRAQ FRONT: The British attack targeting Baghdad started in the Tigris region at the beginning of February 1917. While the gunboat "Sehnanpakand" and the barge "Haydar" were busy with the enemy's land forces. The gunboat "Doğan" and and further steam- boats also received the task of carrying supplies from Mehdi. Enemy planes attacked the ships gathered in Mahdi for this purpose and injured several boats. Kutulamare fell into enemy hands on 24. February 1917. On 27. February enemy gunboats were 11 kilometers east of Aziziye. While the Turkish forces continued to retreat, on 28. February four enemy gunboats carrying 150 mm guns forced the flotilla into battle near Aziziye and, after a few hours of battle, destroyed the mines and mobile workshop barges of the Selmanpak and the gunboat "Doğan" and the barge "Haydar". As a result of the attacks of the British, which continued for two and a half months, it was decided to bring reinforcement forces from the Iranian front in order to improve the Turkish situation in the Tigris section, and on the other hand, mines were laid in some parts of the Tigris. Meanwhile, the Office of the Commander-in-Chief was ordering to erect obstacles in the Tigris by sinking ships. Following the continuation of the withdrawal, the British entered Baghdad on 11. March. The 13th and 18th Corps arrived in Samarra. The Euphrates flotilla, which passed the Nağra and Hindiye waterfalls with great difficulty, joined the Euphrates Group in Fallujah on March 17. This flotilla, "Ganimet" and steamboats no. 2, and 105 mm. It consisted of two pontoons carrying two cannons. While the Euphrates Group was retreating to Remadiye two days later, the said flotilla inflicted heavy losses on two enemy cavalry divisions. When the flotilla ran out of coal, it was towed by the ships' personnel and British prisoners and reached the Euphrates Group in Remadiye on 21. March. Meanwhile, the Basra Commodore was located in Hit. On 27. March the Euphrates flotilla withdrew to El'uze, having run out of artillery ammunition, and the Turkish forces were 10 kilometers north of Samarra in late April." Source: Page 375 / 376 (translated by copy & past.) Turkey in the First World War; - Naval operations Birinci Dünya Harbinde Türk Harbi, Deniz Harekâtı C.8 https://www.msb.gov.tr/Content/Upload/Docs/askeritariharsiv/112-Birinci_Dunya_Harbinde_Turk_Deniz_Harekati.pdf Holger Edited 1 October , 2023 by Holger Kotthaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wigeon Posted 27 January Share Posted 27 January German map showing Harabkale Battery. Map is undated, possibly c1916 ? Image sourced from US National Archives online collection of German Naval Records .Catalogued as Item 0811 page 0038. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 1 February Share Posted 1 February (edited) On 28/01/2024 at 00:57, Wigeon said: German map showing Harabkale Battery. Map is undated, possibly c1916 ? Image sourced from US National Archives online collection of German Naval Records .Catalogued as Item 0811 page 0038. Hello Wigeon, Thank you for your reference. I tried to get more information using your keyword, but I couldn't get any further Captured German and Related Records on Microfilm: https://www.archives.gov/research/captured-german-records Regarding the time period for this map, Turkish sources (see below) state that the “Harapkale Battery” was only installed in October 1916. If this information is correct, it would mean that this battery cannot yet appear on a map from 1915. This would also confirm your suspicion. This statement is supported by the fact that the British-French troops would not have left these guns undamaged after their withdrawal at the beginning of 1916 if the battery had been already installed in 1915. If we only talk about the 10.5-cm Q.F. Guns L/45 of the "SMS Breslau" / Medillie, according to the "Mitchel-Report" only five guns in two Batteries of the Small Cruiser were used in the Dardanelles fortifications stationary on original naval central mounts. Original Source: CONFIDENTIAL Report of the committee appointed to investigate the attacks delivered on and the enemy defenses of the Dardanelles straits 1919, Admiralty Naval Staff Gunnery Disvision April 1921; - "Mitchell Report" (with very special thanks to a GWF member) Further Sources: Fedayeen of the Bosphorus PART 1 & 2 - Turkish Artillery in the Battles of the Dardanelles DBY Publications, Istanbul 2018. https://www.dby.com.tr/bogazin-fedaileri-2-kitap (The author & field researcher,Bayram Akgün was so friendly to send a pdf version for better translation.) Two 10,5-cm Q.F. L/45 Guns as “Harapkale Battery” POSITIONS: European (Rumelian) Site – Outer Defenses – North-East of the old "Fort Sed ul Bahr" DESIGNATIONS: No. 7 Battery – “Harapkale Battery”, (near locations Harap Kale, Harap Tabya and Harap Tepe) INSTALLATION: From October 1916 – 1920 According to Turkish sources, both photos below show the “Harapkale Battery” with 10.5-cm Q.F. L/45 Guns. A gun barrel from this battery was still on display on the edge of Seddülbahir Village Square in 2014. Three 10,5-cm Q.F. L/45 Guns as “Suandere-North-Battery“ POSITIONS: European (Rumelian) Site – Intermediate Defense - North of Suandere-Bay and Valley at Soganli Mansabi DESIGNATIONS: (Numbering was changed in 1915) No. 17 Battery – Part of the Minefield-Defences as "Suandere-North-Battery" INSTALLATION: From 25. April 1915 – 1918 removed Here we see the positions of both Batteries with together five 10,5-cm Q.F. L/45 Guns between 1915-918 Regards Holger Edited 1 February by Holger Kotthaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wigeon Posted 20 February Share Posted 20 February A few more images of a Gun barge from the KTB of Euphrat-Flus-Abt 1-15 Feb 1918, NARA Roll T1022-308, courtesy US National Archives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 21 February Author Share Posted 21 February Interesting, The man Nöldeke ObLt Euphrates Kampf gruppe 1918 (Tigris-Euphrates Flotila Det) shown in that document is also shown as; Noldicke ObLtzS Marine A. nordetappenleiter (northern stage leader) Etappen dienst (Stage Service) batterie dschemal pascha (battery jemal pasha) (Tigris-Euphrates Flotila Det) 1918 In another document. Of cause I may have made a mistake, are they two men, or the same? Also I notice Cappeln is mentioned, but other documents show; Waltzer Kapt-Lt Marine Commander (Euphrates Stamm Dett) 1917-18 So when Cappeln left (if he did) is unknown and who Kapt-Lt Waltzer is not known Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 21 February Share Posted 21 February 11 hours ago, Wigeon said: A few more images of a Gun barge from the KTB of Euphrat-Flus-Abt 1-15 Feb 1918, NARA Roll T1022-308, courtesy US National Archives. Thanks for the reminder; - I overlooked the 2nd and 3rd pages in the post from 28. January 2024. 8 hours ago, stevenbecker said: The man Nöldeke ObLt Euphrates Kampf gruppe 1918 (Tigris-Euphrates Flotila Det) shown in that document is also shown as; Noldicke ObLtzS Marine A. nordetappenleiter (northern stage leader) Etappen dienst (Stage Service) batterie dschemal pascha (battery jemal pasha) (Tigris-Euphrates Flotila Det) 1918 In another document. Of cause I may have made a mistake, are they two men, or the same? Also I notice Cappeln is mentioned, but other documents show; Waltzer Kapt-Lt Marine Commander (Euphrates Stamm Dett) 1917-18 So when Cappeln left (if he did) is unknown and who Kapt-Lt Waltzer is not known Were the German ranks mentioned previously also on the “SMS Breslau“ or “SMS Goeben“? Regards Holger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenbecker Posted 21 February Author Share Posted 21 February Unknown Ranks and details are as shown in both documents, Unless more can be found in German records, like the Militär-Wochenblatt or the Staatsanzeiger Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Kotthaus Posted 22 February Share Posted 22 February 9 hours ago, stevenbecker said: Unknown Ranks and details are as shown in both documents, Unless more can be found in German records, like the Militär-Wochenblatt or the Staatsanzeiger Cheers Thanks for reply and additionally references. I'll look into the matter and post here. There is probably a list somewhere of which crews from the “SMS Breslau” stayed on board and who were assigned to the SoKo. Because I have only been dealing with this theater of war for 6 months, a lot of things are still new to me and it will take some time until I have worked through the topic. Regards Holger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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